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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:28 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:05 am
Posts: 1
NVPete wrote:
Here's the Ditzler/PPG code for Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad Federal Yellow, 80061. This time, they were good enough to include the chip itself. LOL

I haven't been able to match this one up with an available DuPont chip as of yet but I can tell you it's definitely not the same color as Federal Truck Yellow, 93-6578...


Hi NVPete... my understanding is that 80061 did not exist before 1956. And scouring the web, it looks like nobody else used 80061 after 1956 except the C&O. How you got a paint chip is a miracle. Do you think if I were to contact the same folks you did that I'd be able to pick one up myself? Hey, some people win the lottery twice, am I right?

If not, have you had any luck matching it up with another yellow in which a paint chip WOULD be obtainable?

Thanks and Happy New Year,
Stan


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:09 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Hi Stan!!! Happy New Year to you and yours as well!!!

Yeah, I picked that fifties Ditzler catalog up on eBay so I'll message you if I happen to see another.

PaintRef does have all these alphabetical fleet codes by customer available now on their site. They're using a 1990 Ditzler/PPG reference source...

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedi ... make=Fleet

The last two I was going to post out of my catalog were for the Conemaugh and Black Lick...

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedi ... k+Railroad

Anyway, back to the matter at hand, apparently DuPont's Federal Yellow is 93-373 which would've been 88-373 in industrial railroad-type paint. The matching General Motors code is WE5910...

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetai ... ont=93-373

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetail ... ode=WE5910

You'll find a couple more Ditzler/PPG and other code numbers there. Eric also has 373 Yellow listed for the Santa Fe.

WARNING!!! The 373 and 6808 Yellows are extremely close to each other. WE5909 is the GM code for DuPont 6808.

The Ditzler chip shows slightly richer in this photo due to a less glossy finish but it does match the fan deck if I look at it with my right eye instead of my left, or is it the other way around?... LOL


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federalyellowmatchup.jpg
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Last edited by NVPete on Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
This was a quickie, Stan, but it actually looks pretty good...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:27 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Stanley Steemer Federal Yellow? Now why do I think that's funny? LOL

This suit and tie carpet cleaning guy seems happy to show off his nozzle...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Here's a 1967 Ditzler/PPG International sheet featuring Federal Yellow (DuPont 373) with its associated Ditzler/PPG code number at the time. I believe Highway Yellow falls somewhere close to DuPont 54701 and 6808 but I'd need a sample of that color to verify. I'm sure it's in the fan deck as well so maybe I can flush that one out eventually...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:58 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
The Erie-Lackawanna and Norfolk and Western are popping up under DuPont 6808. Unfortunately, some of these fleet listings aren't specific enough as far as their actual application goes but at least now we do know they used the color for something... LOL

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedi ... ame=Yellow

The EL did switch to a brighter yellow in place of Lackawanna Yellow which I had thought might be Borden Yellow so we'll see where that goes eventually.

I've got a new problem with the Mayflower colors. Apparently, at some point, they had changed to B8046 Green and 54701 Yellow so I'm going to have to go back and redo that RBMN/Mayflower comparison...

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedi ... nd+Storage

B8046 is one of the General Motors Woodland Green codes which became a big green fleet color in later years...

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetail ... pont=B8046

I'm thinking that might put 1317 on the RBMN instead of 5316 since the Mayflower reference color will be a bit darker. The yellows weren't that far apart which did mystify me a bit earlier but now it doesn't.

That's right, I already have B8046 scanned so I'll do it post haste.

And there you have it...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:05 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Whew, I'm glad I caught that one. LOL Now, I'm just hoping Phil can verify.

Back to Ditzler/PPG 80061 Yellow...

Tucked away at the beginning of the yellows in the fan deck is GM WE5930. For some reason, this color is segregated from the rest so I'm thinking it's actually one of the national school bus yellows. I do have some of those chips handy so I'll look for further matchups and numbers. The Martin-Senour code in their catalog is 3857.

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetail ... ode=WE5930

WE5930 is the exact match for 80061, Stan. It was hiding from me the other day so I apologize for that oversight on my part. To the right are WE5910 ( DuPont 373), WE5909 (DuPont 6808), WE5919 (DuPont 5248), and WE5918 (DuPont 54701)...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:15 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
To throw my two cents in on Ditzler 80061… This appears to be a one-off fleet color developed for C&O for Dodge trucks in 1956 (Chrysler color code DT2084). Whether it was used after that, I can’t say. Without a chip, I also couldn’t say that it falls within the National School Bus Yellow range, the federal standard color being AMS-STD 13423. The current acceptable range due to the removal of lead chromate being AMS-STD 13425 (a smidgeon darker) to AMS-STD 13507 (a smidgeon lighter) - a very narrow range. If I recall correctly, DuPont 6808 matched AMS 13423 as did Ditzler 80502. [I went down a rabbit hole once trying to match a particular shade of chrome yellow].

I could very well be wrong but by memory, a dangerous thing, I think that the Ditzler 80061 yellow may be lighter than 80502, otherwise the numbers would be the same. But I could be full of hooey.

As a reminder, in all but a few cases, you can’t go by color name. One’s “School Bus Yellow” may be another’s “Sunflower” or whatever to throw out an example.

If you can find a copy, I think the AREA standards (one of the organizations that became part of AREMA) in force at the time may define that color. That’s a whole other rabbit hole for someone else to dive down.

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Eric Schlentner
Turner of Wrenches, Drawer of Things


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Here it is, Eric, 1947-1954 Mack Truck Yellow, Ditzler/PPG 80309, which is also listed for the NYC...

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedi ... ame=Yellow

The DuPont Bulletin 11 doesn't have this color...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
This is a photo of a 1949-50 Acme sheet on eBay. I saw an old Rodgers sheet there as well. Mack Truck Yellow is not the same color as the more common Mack yellow, Kiltie Yellow, 93-24067, which is shown in Bulletin 11. Still no luck finding a DuPont number for this one, however, but I'll keep looking for later matches...


Attachments:
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Last edited by NVPete on Fri Jan 13, 2023 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 3:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Okay, here's where it gets messy with the 1967 DuPont fleet catalog. The best match for WE5930 appears to be 93-74035 but the slightly darker 93-75306 is indeed National School Bus Yellow. 93-74085 is a bit darker than WE5930 as well. I think I've had about enough of this for the day. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:03 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
There has to be a morning after, just like in the Poseidon Adventure...

Upon further review last evening under intense artificial light, all three of those 1967 DuPont colors turn out to be darker than WE5930. The best matches continue to be Ditzler/PPG 80061 and 80309.

Unfortunately, I can't compare the 80061 and 80309 chips directly since they're on different pages of the catalog so, for now, I'll have to settle on using the WE5930 card as an intermediary.

WE5930 does separate itself from the other similar yellows on the MS sheet quite nicely but this color is becoming almost as baffling as 80061 itself...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
After pondering this one for awhile today, guys, I think I've managed to come up with a possible answer.

The Ditzler/PPG chips are generally bolder in color than their DuPont counterparts, not just the yellows, and I believe it's throwing me off a bit. We've seen this before with the GMC Venetian Yellow samples. Sometimes, the fan deck colors don't quite match up as well.

So here's my solution which may or may not be logical only in my own mind but here goes...

General Motors WE5930 is supposed to be DuPont 93-74306 School Bus Yellow which is why it's segregated in the fan deck. GM WE5910 is the equivalent of DuPont 93-373 and is listed as a color used by the C&O/B&O. Mack Truck Yellow is DuPont 93-373 which is the equivalent of Ditzler/PPG 80309. Ditzler/PPG 80309 matches 80061. Therefore, I postulate that Ditzler/PPG 80061 is the equivalent of DuPont 93-373 and GM WE5910.

Makes sense, right? LOL

This Nason sheet has Mack Truck Yellow dating back to 1938 which could/would/should account for the low Ditzler/PPG 8xxxx color code number. Narva Green is on there also so that wasn't just a GMC color...


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Last edited by NVPete on Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:08 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
DuPont 373 Yellow and 2063 Blue, it looks like the Chessie colors are exactly the same as the Santa Fe's...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Examples of the Reading's Postwar Paint Colo
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Annville, PA
Well, it's been a couple weeks and I still can't find any other yellow that exactly matches GM WE5930 besides Ditzler/PPG 80061 and 80309. Between WE5930 and WE5910, WE5910 (DuPont 373) remains the best choice, at least for #490 here...


Attachments:
co490withWE5910andWE5930.JPG
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Last edited by NVPete on Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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