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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 606
I believe that’s the example he was hinting about.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 490
nathansixchime wrote:
Ron Travis wrote:

Or has it not been sold, and the relocation is being done by the present owner?


The parties representing the current owner are looking into temporary relocation.

Scranton Yard wrote:
Thank you. So, what is the estimated cost to restore the switch? If the property is being sold, and the new owner plans on shipping by rail and would require the switch to be reinstalled anyway, who would bear the expense?


I didn't ask -- they were too optimistic for the work required in the time frame they gave for me to want to learn more.

Anyone who has been paying any attention to this board and to rail preservation for the past fourteen years or so knows that Mr. Lynch's work in this field speaks for itself. His helpful answers here do bring to mind a few avenues for further inquiry.

Have the folks representing the current owner produced documentation supporting their representation as agents for the owner in the sale of the equipment? If so, do they have the authority to sell the equipment on his/her behalf or are they attempting to broker a deal/advising the owner with the owner having final authority to accept or reject offers?

As for their optimism in reconnecting to live rail and moving the equipment out of harms way in time, how long would it typically take and how much would it typically cost to restore the connection? How much work has to be done to the equipment to allow it to be moved by rail over the main and associated connected sidings? What will the consequences be if they cannot meet the 30 to 40 day window for relocating the equipment as you describe?

nathansixchime wrote:
At least 2-3 of the 5 qualified parties have the immediate means/where-with-all to move the 643.


What is the minimum amount of time these potential purchasers would need to remove the equipment if the connection can not be reestablished in the "optimistic" 30 to 40 day window?

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 8:23 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:51 pm
Posts: 143
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
I spoke with the locomotive owner and yes, ownership of the property holding the locomotive will be changing. I did not ask any other details.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 9:13 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 910
The question of the price for reinstalling a switch has come up. Here is an article copied and pasted from Trains Magazine from March, which reported that G&W wanted $86k to reinstall a switch from the TP&W to the Logansport & Eel River (at a time when ITM was trying to relocate there and run excursions, which is apparently dead now, as is the ITM): http://indianarailroads.org/board/index ... #msg192169

"LOGANSPORT, Ind. — The displaced Indiana Transportation Museum may soon have a new home.... The railroad is also seeking an answer regarding whom — the Logansport & Eel River or connecting railroad Toledo, Peoria & Western, a Genesee & Wyoming company — is responsible for replacing a switch which used to connect the short line to the TP&W. Logansport & Eel River is arguing that the switch was removed without permission and TP&W wants $86,500 for a new switch."

I have seen the number $100k in other contexts, as I recall that is what CSX wanted to reinstall the switch from their mainline to the CMRR in Kingston NY (also now moot). However, the cost may be lower going from a siding to another siding, without signalling etc., especially if CSX were to allow a contractor to do the work.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 9:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1855
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
To install a new switch into the CSX main adjacent to the now landlocked 643 including the tie in to the signal system will run approx. $ 250,000.00

However If ( huge if ) CSX were willing to play ball the far better idea would be to temporarily cut the main track, shove it over to mate up with the siding 643 sits on, move the engine out onto the main, shove the main back into position and re-weld.

I would guess that could be done for about $ 50,000 including spotting some ties in the siding to support the 643's move out.

The HUGE if here is whether CSX would allow that ( not likely) and if the owner or buyer have the resources to not only finance that piece but also the expenses of getting her road ready ( $ 25,000 +/-) and the railroad fee(s) to move her either dead in tow or on heavy duty flats like the 2100 moved from Washington State to Cleveland.

All made far more problematic by the calendar.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:02 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:05 am
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec
So for now just wait and see for a update. That look good for 643 but i just curious about the new owner.

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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:23 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2485
Location: Northern Illinois
I thought the CSX line had been lowered several feet? Admittedly some earth moving work would take care of that, but 2-10-4's aren't noted for liking vertical curves, so it's going to need to be a long ramp, which means building a length of track to match. This is going to be interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 11:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:50 pm
Posts: 469
Dennis,

The mainlines were both lowered. I would guess 1-2 feet or so. I still think it's more feasible to swing the back end of the side track over and make a temporary S - curve to tie into the stub end of the siding without disturbing the CSXT mainline.

If tieing in to the mainline were the only way to get her out on her own wheels, it would take a simple cut and slide of the mainline over to meet the existing siding (which would need to be extended out to get a lot closer to the mainline), make your connections, surface and tamp the track, drag the equipment out onto the main, realign the mainline and reconnect things back to the way they were. CSXT would have to agree to run bi-directional on he opposing main track for probably 8-10 hours if not more before the main would be restored.

Rob Gardner


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 12:20 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2606
Even a private contractor is going to be about $50K, if they can work there at all. If it’s on CSX property, they’ll likely do their own work.

Here’s my question. $100K will pay for an awful lot of crane rental. Why not just crane it onto that closest track. No, you can’t swing a locomotive that far in one pick. But you could “walk” it over there a step at a time. Pick up, swing 10 feet sideways or whatever the capacity allows, reset the cranes, do it again and again and again. Sure, it’ll take a while, but $100K will pay for a decent amount of time. While you're at it, take the boiler off, put the pieces on flatcars and suddenly you can move it with ease.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 1:43 am 

Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 216
No railroad is going to take anyones advice when it comes to their track. They have their own engineering department for that.
Swinging heavily ballasted track back to its original position will hump the track unless the excess ballast is removed/shoveled out first.
I'm surprised no one mentioned using side boom Cats and panel track. That's how the Illinois Railway Museum got The Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 #265 out of Milwaukee Wisconsin and she was sitting at 90% to the live track. Her tender stayed connected for that move. Same technique used for AT&SF 4-8-4 #2903 (big engine) from Chicago's Museum Of Science and Industry traveling through a city park down a horse path then side street , left 90% on another street then right 90% into an alley behind a gas station which happen to have a siding on it, then up to the IC's electric main line . The engine and tender had been separated first and then reconnected before entering the live track. Of course highly insured reputable contractors were used and coordinated the moves with the railroads. If they damage property ,roll the locomotive , and most important , injure or kill someone , you/organization are protected .
No place for uninsured amateurs on a large move like this. . All companies know this .


Last edited by M Secco on Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 7:36 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 490
nathansixchime wrote:
Relocation is due to take place sometime within 30-40 days -- but the party behind the transaction said they don't plan to scrap it and are otherwise actively engaged in getting the switch reinstalled to facilitate short term relocation.

Side booms, cutting in, and several other options mentioned in the previous sixteen pages of thread are all certainly viable options that would be considered by any potential purchaser of the equipment. I specifically asked about the cost of restoring the switch because that is what the equipment owner is attempting to implement in a 30 to 40 day window. The cost and time involved in restoring the switch go directly to the equipment owner's likelihood of success in relocating the equipment prior to the transfer of deed for the property upon which the equipment currently sits. The equipment owner's likelihood of success in restoring the switch and moving the equipment directly impact the probable ultimate disposition of the equipment and, if sold, the purchase price.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 7:57 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 490
I do not in any way want to initiate a barrage of second-guessing of the ability and motivation of the owner of this equipment as it appears the equipment has been pretty well cared for. It seems that this issue of landlocked equipment arises often enough to warrant a discussion of the possible options a steward of rail equipment has when faced with being disconnected from live rail. Besides moving the equipment to trackage that will remain connected to the general system, what, if any, legal steps could the owner of the artifacts have taken to prevent the severing of the connection/removal of the switch?


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 9:17 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9314
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
My understanding from other similar situations to this is that if a private siding off a Class One main is not doing above a certain level of freight business annually, the owner may be invoiced a certain amount a year (it could be a token fee, it could be extortionate) to maintain said connection. I personally witnessed a few sidings taken out on Conrail/NS mains with that strategy.

Mind you, I'm sure that this plays out differently at the end of an industrial park spur than it does a siding on your intercity main line with a dozen or more trains a day........

The motivation, naturally, is to eliminate opportunities for fast freight trains to "pick a switch" and derail--as (apparently) just happened the other day in Wellington, Ohio on CSX........


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 9:23 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1407
Location: Youngstown, OH
Scranton Yard wrote:
what, if any, legal steps could the owner of the artifacts have taken to prevent the severing of the connection/removal of the switch?


Yeah, become a customer and ship/receive the minimum number of carloads per year to maintain the connection!

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J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 9:29 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Pittsburgh
“… what, if any, legal steps could the owner of the artifacts have taken to prevent the severing of the connection/removal of the switch?”

ADM the IV is correct. A railroad sidetrack to an industrial customer is typically governed by a private legal agreement. A railroad enters into that private sidetrack agreement with the expectation that the customer will regularly be getting freight cars shifted in and out, resulting in operating revenue to the railroad. That revenue will, among other things, compensate the railroad for the expense of maintaining the connection. The usual legal agreement for installation of a private sidetrack gives the railroad the right to remove the connecting turnout if the sidetrack is no longer being used and hence no longer generating any revenue.

In this case, the heavy vegetation visible in Google Earth photography dating back two decades suggests that the sidetrack hadn’t been used routinely in a very long time. When CSX initiated a double-stack project for this portion of the former P&LE, it was necessary to increase the vertical clearance underneath the Pittsburgh & Ohio Central’s overhead bridge. The sidetrack switch tied into a running track parallel to the main pretty much directly under that bridge. With no prospect of revenue coming from that sidetrack, CSX removed the turnout, along with that portion of the running track, and lowered the two main tracks under the bridge. The location of the former running track appears to have become a drainage ditch for the lowered main track.

CSX likely notified the property owner that they could keep the sidetrack connection if they would pay to have it reconfigured during the double stack project. I also expect the property owner declined to do so, since the cost was likely well into six significant figures. Why should he pay that sort of money for a sidetrack that he was no longer using? Whether the owner of 643 was involved in those discussions is unknown. Regardless, the result is that the locomotives are now isolated from the general system.

Perhaps the broader lesson here is that if your museum has a sidetrack connection to a railroad, but you’re not routinely using it, you just might want to read the legal agreement. The railroad may have no legal obligation to leave the turnout in place. The next time it needs switch timbers or some other costly maintenance, you just might get a letter from the railroad giving you the choice of either paying for that work or losing the connection.

/s/ Larry
Lawrence G. Lovejoy, P.E.


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