How do you know that is the case with this engine and its owner? He is the only one who can decide whether it is worth it to move the engine to other storage.

2014, a loco that was supposedly already "saved" but ended up in a ownership/storage dispute when the (supposed) owner couldn't afford to rectify the situation (sound familiar?):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37373



ONLY IF YOU HAVE A BUYER.
This has ALWAYS been the dilemma with rail preservation. By default, it has to be a collective pursuit. You can buy and run a boat, car, truck, plane, carriage, covered wagon, etc. just about anywhere. When you buy a railroad car or locomotive, even parking it in the backyard raises major issues. It's more a liability than the proverbial "hole in the water you throw money into" (old definition of a boat).
Virtually every individual owner of a big steam loco has ended up, at the very least, having to park it and let it "rot" figuratively. Dick Jensen. Ross Rowland. George Hart, The Showalters. CP 2839. Virtually every individually (or two/three-person group) owned steam loco of a smaller size that I have personal knowledge of has eventually been sold or donated to a non-profit. Wilmington & Western's steamers (past and present) are an example. (CN 91: still holding out for the moment....)



I have watched incompetent or inexperienced scrappers "lose their shirts" just scrapping a PCC or boxcar. No experienced scrapper is going to touch this voluntarily. As others have said, this may be a case where you have to GIVE the loco to a scrapper to come on site, even without asbestos (allegedly).



The pertinent question: Do any of these locos actually SELL for those prices?
Because of a fluke in Amazon third-party seller applications, you can find books all over Amazon offered at horrendously inflated prices. Albert Churella's "From Steam to Diesel" was being offered for $500+ shortly after I snatched up remainders from a book seller for $12.75 each. The real-world price has to be borne from what actually SELLS at whatever price.

I could be wrong, but I think the last time we had a truly "free-market" sale of steam locomotives as a commercial asset in the U.S. were the ex-LS&I/Grand Canyon/Mt. Hood/etc. trio of 2-8-0s, 18, 19, and 20. Those are locos that any new "commercial" excursion operation, or a non-profit acting like one, would be extremely smart to snap up. Tell me, how well is the San Luis & Rio Grande operation with 18 and 20 doing right now? Then go look at where 19 is. Newer operations like the Colebrookdale and Allentown & Auburn have shied away from these otherwise "perfect" locos. Even the Grand Canyon Railway doesn't want/need a loco this size, and they run trains of 15 cars somewhat regularly on 3% grades!

There are a couple other instances out there. Former W&W 2-8-2T 37 was sold many years ago by its private owners to a party on the West Coast, and it STILL sits at Strasburg awaiting funds for completion. W&W 0-6-0T 3: for sale for years at a "reasonable" price in lower Delaware, no takers.

The Gramlings are an interesting exception: part labor of love, part commercial enterprise (making a hobby pay for itself). BUT YOU CAN TRUCK THEM AROUND. You couldn't even get a Class One RR to talk to you about moving 643, in all probability. Two other exceptions owned their own multi-million-dollar railroads: Andrew Muller and Jerry Jacobson.

While we are on the subject of steam locomotive ownership,
storage, restoration, operation, how does Richard Grigsby
and his Reader Railroad fit into this general picture?

I'd be curious to hear any comments anyone may have.

Chuck

I agree with all that Alexander posted in that summary, and had one other Tom F. quote to provide some feedback towards:


Ten years ago, during/after the 261 lease/sale issue with the National Railway Museum of Green Bay, there was quite a bit of discussion on the pricing of steam locomotives (which may extend to our other rail artifacts as well). One takeaway that I came up with from there, is that generally there is an inverse relationship between a locomotive's size and the ability to get a good price for it. Here is a link to that thread:
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27565

The main reason, as indicated in Alexander's post, is that with a larger artifact, is that you have a greater expense in moving it (physical issues and cooperating road districts/railroads being a factor), restoring/maintaining it, and operating it. There are always exceptions, such as acquiring a Big Boy from a park. So, if you are a giant corporation interested in expensing the project for marketing purposes, then you can perhaps justify the costs involved. I doubt the steel/coal industry of the Bessemer territory would have such needs.

Pricing of steam locomotives? While not exactly comparable in tonnage, both Woodward Iron 2-10-0 No. 41 at Mid-Continent Railway Museum and the US Army 2-8-0 No. 612 at Cass Scenic were up for public bid in the past decade. Do any of you recall the prices that either fetched? The realized value of non-operational steam locomotives is a pittance compared to what folks actually think they are worth (asking price).

Bear in mind that the city of Anna, Texas, population of 12,000+, recently paid $348,360 for a 1906 Alco 2-6-0 that I believe is destined for static display.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43200&p=289535&hilit=reader#p289535

As for scrap prices, the KCS 503, at 184,000 pounds, was to have brought in $35,000 last year.

Seems like determining prices has more to do with whatever the market will bear.

Also bear in mind that we're dealing with the unknown here. All we have is a listing from a reputable Ebay seller who has never sold anything like this before and whose connection to the owner is unknown.

Based on comparable sales of other steam locomotives:

Say an average qualified buyer was willing to purchase this engine if he/she could get a satisfactory price. What would be the range of that price?

There is no such thing as an "average qualified buyer." "Qualified" buyers don't get the money to buy stuff at big expense by being stupid. Jay Leno is in a situation where he could afford just about any automobile he wants; that doesn't mean he's going to buy a mint-condition Yugo GV with less than 400 miles on it for $9,900 (Yes, there's one for sale right now at that price) OR buy the likes of 643, a Dusenberg station wagon kitbash, or a private RR car just because he (theoretically) can.

Let's presume that some commercial operation found a need for this loco and the track could take it--say, Strasburg, Grand Canyon, Napa Valley Wine Train, whoever.

Anyone IN THIS BUSINESS that has successfully made money at this kind of thing is going to be astute enough to understand everything in my screed above. They're going to go in and offer a figure that won't make the owner blow them off completely, but has to balance against the costs of moving. I'm going to guess that said figure might be around $50,000. Maybe $75-100K on a VERY good day/cost basis AND they can call in favors for shipping with the railroads.

All this, of course, is irrelevant if somehow, somebody gets a "great idea" to acquire this thing with "someone else's money"--tax dollars or corporate expense accounts. Disney World. A movie studio planning to stage a big train wreck. A city or town with a dumb city government that gets bamboozled by some "consultant's" report or sales pitch. We've seen cases where folks have been "suckered" in this fashion in the past and not-so-past.

While there haven’t been many steam engines scrapped recently, there have been cars scrapped - for example in the Chicago suburbs there was a very nice and complete Rock Island diner that was subject to a protracted bankruptcy case - and it was cut up and hauled off one day with no notice. And nothing from it was saved. So don’t rule that out.

Wasn’t the engine that left SRI a few years ago - the ex-Gettysburg loco - was that sold?

Chris.

Someone like Lyle Lanley, perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM

Well that’s all I am looking for. We talk about appraisals and whether they are too high. But its true value is what somebody is willing to pay. An accurate appraisal has to reflect that factor. You say $50,000-100,000 is what somebody is probably willing to pay. The seller states in his ad that he will consider offers of less than his asking price, and that he will sell to the highest offer.

So say, the seller gets offers of $50,000 and $100,000. He takes the offer of $100,000. Why isn’t that not far more likely than the seller not accepting the high offer, refusing to move the engine off of its present storage site, and losing it through litigation?

He didn't imply probably, he implied possibly. And I don't think anyone believes that the owner would turn down more money for less all things being equal, I think the worry is that he misjudging the situation, and how hard it is to get 643 out of there, will wait to the last minute to take such an offer and then the property owner, who couldn't care less, will have it cut up.

Anyone good friends with the owner of the Wheeling & Lake Erie RR? W&LE excursions with BL&E 643. Or is W&LE not a steam friendly RR?

Robert

Not for the last several years, since they carelessly wrecked Orrville's passenger equipment and decided that instead of making them whole they'd just end the relationship and kick them off the property. And if you detect a note of disdain, you are very perceptive.