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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:42 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 840
Old Smokey wrote:
mrwalsh85.
Found your request quite interesting, especially some of the feedback you got.
Talked to some friends about it.
The problem you face is the same as the full size loco's in today's world.

So your questions are quite relevant.

One friend, who works on this stuff, suggested propane as a fuel.
Not practical for the big stuff, but has real benefits for what you are doing.

There are numerous fuels used today to fire steam loco's.
They all work, more or less, but cost and ....availability....is the deciding factor.

Just so you know, the big guys, such as CPRail (2816) and UPRR (Big Boy).. burn recycled diesel. (from their own fleets).

A Mr. E. Dickens has been working on the very same problem recently. A bit bigger than yours, but the same issues.
Converting from coal to oil...and customizing the new burner to the firebox.

Dennis.


What the heck is "recycled diesel?"

I think you mean recycled diesel lube oil that has been re-refined, cleaned and mixed with #2 diesel to adjust the flash point.

Using straight diesel in a large steam locomotive is buying trouble with leaking flues and staybolts because it does not heat evenly, causing excess streses.


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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:58 pm
Posts: 172
JohnHillier. An interesting read. Thanks.
Back when BCRail were operating the Royal Hudson...
the preferred fuel of choice was Bunker-C.
Vancouver was a major seaport, and BCR serviced the dock's..
Readily available...and cheap.


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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:58 pm
Posts: 172
Lincoln Penn.
Yes, exactly. Thanks.
The various fluids are blended to make a useful fuel.


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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:08 pm
Posts: 315
Location: Alberta, Canada
Lincoln Penn and Old Smokey,

Thanks for clearing up what people really mean when they talk about burning diesel fuel in a steam locomotive. I had always thought it a odd choice of fuel due to the aforementioned heating and stress issues.

And since most oil-fired steam locomotives were intended and designed to burn a heavier grade like bunker fuel, it is not surprising to hear that they run best on that stuff.

I should also add that a friend of mine who is into live steam models (big enough to ride on) has gotten very good results using propane as a fuel. Of course every engine is different, and his were designed and built to burn propane.

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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6399
Location: southeastern USA
Diesel can be burned very well in locomotive boilers. You just have to use the correct technology for it - it doesn't do well using technology designed for Bunker oil. Scalability is also an issue given the difference in size between model live steamers and full size. I'd advise you to consider everything from the firepan through the stack as an organic whole combustion system rather than trying to look at only one part at a time since they might not play well together.

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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:45 am
Posts: 366
Location: Skagway, Alaska
Propane is doable on engines, Busch Gardens uses it, but you have to figure out a way to keep the draw on the tanks low enough to keep them from freezing. You can continuously swap them out or figure out how to fire using as little fuel as possible. I ran a Cagney for a few weeks that was literally on a panel of track less than 50' long and it froze a 10 lb. bottle very quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
Steam heat, just like with bunker C :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 181
As I recall Kings Island has heating coils around their propane tanks, plumbed to the boiler. Fireman controls the amount of heat needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:12 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
Back in the 80's I worked for a tourist railroad that got a several loads of jet fuel from the Military. It had been contaminated with water, and for some reason the fly boys didn't like water in their jet juice. So we got it for free. I think it was JP-4 but it's been a while. As mentioned, it's basically kerosene. In liquid form, it's almost hard to ignite. I recall dumping some on a campfire once, and somebody said "What is that?" "Jet fuel..." Everyone panics, meanwhile, I'm going "Come on, light already!" while trying to get it to ignite. I said "It's Jet fuel, not Avgas..."

That said, when vaporized it was a different matter, it would flash quite readily. We ended up mixing it with used motor oil to tone it down, the risk of firebox explosions was pretty high. When blended, it worked fine. Used by itself, it was risky for somebody not familiar with it.

I agree though, sounds like the problems would be draft related. Without actually looking at it, it's going to be hard to tell for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Request for information - Oil Firing
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:45 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
JohnHillier wrote:
Propane is doable on engines, Busch Gardens uses it, but you have to figure out a way to keep the draw on the tanks low enough to keep them from freezing. You can continuously swap them out or figure out how to fire using as little fuel as possible. I ran a Cagney for a few weeks that was literally on a panel of track less than 50' long and it froze a 10 lb. bottle very quickly.


Propane works on park engines, I don't think you could use it on a full size locomotive for anything more than maybe keeping the boiler warm overnight. It would require a huge tank and not sure it has enough BTUs to handle a load. Maybe a small loco on a level track.

At Remlinger farms we have a 2 foot gauge Crown 4-4-0 converted to propane. For our purposes, it works great. It provides a consistent spot fire and does well on the run. The track is relatively flat though, and on the grade back up to the station there are times when it can barely keep up with the demand. It would be challenging if there was a longer or steeper hill.

We also use a tank heater, just a small copper pipe. The size of the tank and the break between trips means you typically don't need it in summer. In fall when it's cool and especially when there's lots of moisture in the air, the tank will freeze up if you don't keep a small "feather" of steam in the tender, kind of like steam heat for coaches. We have a pressure gauge that lets you see how much you have, and when it starts dropping, time to add a bit more steam.


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