Excursion trains are big business anymore. I have seen astronomical prices for some of these excursions. I just called the Durango and Silverton railroad about prices for some of their trains. Many approached nearly $150.00 dollars. More than a ticket to Disneyland! Even the Colorado railroad museum with their small oval track, was charging $40.00-$100.00 for the Polar Express train. Sold out ever train. Many of these railroads are charging the equivalent of a day pass at a modern amusement park. Yet they do it with a fraction of the overhead many times with unpaid volunteers and labor.

The Verde Canyon railroad in Arizona is charging a mind blowing $350.00 for a cab ride. Once again often sold out. The ticket cost on the annual #844 excursion was $250.00-$500.00 last year with every seat sold out. Engineer for a day on the Albeline and Smokey Valley Railway will set you back a cool $1000.00

It saddens me as someone in the lower income bracket, that these excursions are quickly becoming only something for the wealthy to afford. Prices are increasing by leaps and bounds every year. All the money pouring into these railroads is good for the preservation and we will see lots of new steam in the years to come. Unfortunately most of us will only be able to watch from the sidelines.

Another reason to love Steamtown. Excursion tickets start at $24 for an adult ticket. And no, they weren't higher for steam. Once 3713 is back on the rails I don't know if you'll be able to find a better value.

Got to disagree with you there. As the old saying goes, "If you want to make a small fortune, start with a large fortune and start a steam railroad." My employer is touted as being highly sucessful, but honestly our passenger operation is a break even proposition or worse most years.

I am guessing that RBM&N is in the same boat - the passenger end covers costs but not much more, and without the freight revenue covering the overhead couldn't exist.

As often happens, this thread is subject to "topic drift". One of the best bargains around is the Durbin Rocket. The ride along the Greenbrier River is beautiful and the cost is reasonable.

http://mountainrailwv.com/tour/the-durbin-rocket/

Perhaps slightly off topic : What is the business case for steam over diesel? If someone has a "successful", or even a "break even" tourist operation with diesel, can that manager make a case for switching to steam operation? What is the incremental income that would be gained after the switch? Is there enough to pay for purchase and upkeep of a steamer? Indeed, is there any at all?

If this business case can be made, then the hypothetical manufacturer of mass-produced steam locos would have (or will have) a full order book.

JR

That’s a question that has been asked before on this board and it always gets a divided answer.

The best real life example is Grand Canyon Railway, they used to run multiple steam trains daily in the summer season, and now they run steam once a month. It’s been a few years since this change occurred, have they noticed a drop in ridership at all? (I don’t know the answer to that, but I’m guessing not?). At the same time, they still run steam once a month, that tells me there are enough customers that want to ride steam, and/ or they understand the marketing power of using steam in their advertisements to justify the extra costs.

Another real life example is Western Maryland, a pretty scenic operation, however they took a pretty heavy drop in ridership when they lost steam correct? But the example gets a bit tricky since they also had to shorten their rides due to the track work at about the same time.

It does seem like the most successful operations run steam the most... Strasburg, Durango, Essex Steam, these guys all run steam almost exclusively. If you took steam away would the numbers change? Hard to say.

But to answer your question directly, I don’t think a 1-2 million dollar investment (just for the loco, not counting crew training, extra crew required, steam shop and facilities, etc.) will immediately see that type of return.

I've been looking at them recently! When I created my crazy tourist railroad concept, I actually considered buying an SY or JS Mikado from them and operate it. I ultimately shelved it as the project would've been too pricey, and I actually figured out that my Y6B project is actually cheaper. (Crazy, I know!) And besides, I don't really know what goes in to making a tourist railroad successful, so there's that too.

I would think the business case would revolve around the ridership. If you have a rail line offering rides in the middle of nowhere then keeping costs as low as possible is key due to limited increase in ridership. When a tourist line is a part of a bigger tourism area such as Colorado parts of Pennsylvania etc. then the potential for increased ridership can warrant steam if none exists. Case in point the East broad top is in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania apparently, where is the Grand Canyon railroad has a destination, so the steam is a practical choice for the Grand Canyon Railway. To think about all of the tourist rail lines that are successful relatively speaking they are a destination for many parts of the general public or they offer a ride to a destination of importance.

My take on this is those tourist lines that only offer diesel power but have good ridership. If an order could be made in advance for a generic mass production, modern, relatively efficient steamer that could fill a niche however small it may be. Case in point are the kitty locomotives found it zoos. I would think one of the first things that would need to be done is to do a in-depth case study and design a locomotive that can compete for a spot on some tourist lines to limit the investment and offer a sooner return. The problem is not one has been designed so comparisons are not available.

The truth our money is tight, steam is desirable even to the general public, keeping costs low, and offering customers a new experience directly related to Rail heritage which is why people go to rail museums. Say a competent 2-8-0 Could be designed for a majority of tourist trains for say $750,000, would that not be a savings over a park restoration? Plus the added reliability and lower cost of modern technology built into the locomotive. That’s where my idea of mass production came in instead of one off build that can’t distribute the cost of design. Getting an idea for what the price range for one of these locomotives would have to be and a general idea of how many would be ordered would offer a alternative to spending 1 million or more rebuilding a derelict locomotive in a park. As tourist railroads become more popular our Supply of available locomotives will diminish and will become far more expensive to repair as they wear out. A affordable alternative has to be considered at some point.

Some years back, Erik Ledbetter (I hope I spelled that correctly; if not, my apologies) had an article on this topic, the gist being that a 6-coupled steam locomotive would be roughly optimum for most museum/tourist lines. Following that premise, a 2-6-2 design would have the advantage of leading/trailing trucks. That said, I defer to the experts in the field who have previously posted here that rebuilding existing, at this time, offers cost and other advantages over new-build.

With steam, one size does not fit all. You choose the locomotive based on the speed and weight of the required service and characteristics of the line it runs on. Erik's excellent article was based on the real premise that most of our tourist and museum lines operate in the range that a nice 6 coupled locomotive can handle very nicely. Also, don't forget that 6 coupled locomotives range from Porter moguls through the AT&SF high speed passenger engines such as were used on the Death Valley Scotty special run. There's a lot of variation in that category.

I wonder of a 2-6-6-2 Mallet would be considered 6 coupled?

The closest anyone's come to standardized new-build steam in recent history is SLM, now DLM in Switzerland.

SLM sold several largely standardized new-build 0-4-2RT rack steam locomotives in the 1990's to mountain railways in Switzerland and Austria. These locomotives incorporated a significant number of improvements such as all-welded construction, roller bearings on axles and motion, modern oil-firing systems allowing one-man operation of the locomotive, Lempor exhausts, ample insulation on the boiler and cylinders, etc. and they remain in service today.

SLM's successor DLM marketed several new-build designs, including 0-8-2RT rack/adhesion locomotives for the Nilgiri Railway in India, 0-4-0T's for the Darjeeling Himalaya in India, narrow gauge 2-8-2T's for Germany, and 4-8-4T's for the Netherlands, among others. Unfortunately no orders were forthcoming. Likely there would have been significant standardization of components between these locomotives, and the designs could have been adapted to different gauges and different wheel arrangements.

If you come up with the cash, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to produce a new build for your tourist line.

East Broad top is not in the middle of nowhere. It’s location is not what caused it to close. That has been brought up so many times on this board and yet people still believe it.

I feel like people are trying to make a case for a need that doesn’t exist. The smaller tourist lines just need a tank engine. Those are cheaper to restore and you can lease one if you want to, as they can be moved by truck.

Most of the tourist lines that want steam already have one or more running. Does Cuyahoga Valley want steam all the time? Or Royal Gorge? Or Napa Valley? Doubtful on all 3. I just don’t know who the customer would be that would want a generic modern built steam locomotive on their “historic” railroad.

Kloke fit the specific need for Age of Steam.
Valley RR, Delaware River Train, and Boone operate “modern” Chinese engines. So I guess there’s a small market? But again I think Kloke would build anyone a locomotive if you paid him.

Well if you want a real world case of steam VS diesel demand.

Summer of 2014 I was up in Northern New Hampshire, in route to Maine. At that time Mount Washington Cog was building the new Bio-Diesel locomotives to replace the heritage steamers, IIRC diesel #3 was just finished at the time). At the time only the first run of the day featured a steam engine (I forget if 1 or 2 steam trains went up as a group).

The 2019 schedule has steam, for the most part, 2-3 times a day during the operating season. https://www.thecog.com/schedule-tickets/ so either there was enough demand to justify the cost of those engines or the diesels didn't yield enough savings (personally I think it was the former, people looking for the heritage steam)

But this is just one case.

Rich C.

Steam versus Diesel?

It depends what you're marketing. Forget/ignore that at your peril.

Virtually NO "heritage operation" out there operates as a true passenger conveyance--that's almost part of the definition of "excursion railway." So you're selling an experience. The reality is that the "nostalgia" market disappeared about two generations ago, and ain't coming back.

That "experience" being marketed varies immensely.

British heritage railways often offer a true "throwback" experience. Once you walk through a certain gate, you're transported back to Edwardian or even Victorian times. You could even climb the steps to a signal box and find the signalman in period attire reading a period book while a teapot sits on a hot plate. It's not that far removed from a renaissance-festival experience in a way. We don't have many of those in the States--the WW&F, EBT when it was running, etc.

Some lines offer you a chance to experience rail history, or allege to do so. Ride a caboose, ride behind steam, take a train ride.

A few lines are part and parcel of a bigger package, sometimes fairly contrived. Disney World, Black Hills Central, Disney World, Clark's Trading Post, and the abuilding Star Barn RR in Lancaster County. I don't think any of the old "Wild West theme parks" still survive, although "bandits" still intercept and "rob" the Grand Canyon Railway train.

With some lines, it's really all about the destination or the ride. Verde Canyon and Potomac Eagle are all about what you see from the train, and really nothing else. Grand Canyon Railway offers you that big hole in the ground at the north end, and a more elegant way of getting there without traffic jams.

There are a few lines that are all about a combination of it all. Cumbres & Toltec, Durango & Silverton, Mount Washington, Cass, and Strasburg are some examples.

Now, the premise of acquiring a steam locomotive has to fit in with one of the above--or maybe you can come up with a new one. With the ride, it hardly matters what's pulling it, as amply demonstrated by the Verde/Grand Canyon, Potomac Eagle, etc. In fact, steam can even be a distraction if you have cinders falling on open cars.

About the only places a "new build" loco fit are either artificially contrived experiences (see the Star Barn) or as a replacement for vintage steam to save wear and tear on original artifacts that are either irreplaceable or getting "long in the tooth"--thus Valley RR and Boone & Scenic Valley. There are darned few operations that can justify the expense--Strasburg (which might be able to build their own if so desired), Conway Scenic (which is using a lot of diesel on the Crawford Notch run), etc.

The ONLY thing really going for "new build" at this point is that the pool of suitable vintage steamers continues to dwindle if for no other reason than age and metallurgy, and the debacle of a couple recent vintage steam rebuilds (PRR 1361, C&O 1309, etc.) may point to new-build being an intriguing option for the few places dependent upon steam (Mt. Washington, Cass, D&S, Disney, etc.)