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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:41 pm
Posts: 117
aswright wrote:
RookieFireman wrote:
Happy to see a milestone reached in this restoration. The 1472 clock starts now.

Was there any support underneath the middle of the boiler? Hard to tell from photos.

Isn't it the case that the clock starts ticking when the first tube is rolled in, not the first fireup?


§230.17 One thousand four hundred seventy-two (1472) service day inspection.
(a) General. Before any steam locomotive is initially put in service or brought out of retirement, and after every 1472 service days or 15 years, whichever is earlier, an individual competent to conduct the inspection shall inspect the entire boiler. In the case of a new locomotive or a locomotive being brought out of retirement, the initial 15 year period shall begin on the day that the locomotive is placed in service or 365 calendar days after the first flue tube is installed in the locomotive, whichever comes first. This 1472 service day inspection shall include all annual, and 5th annual, inspection requirements, as well as any items required by the steam locomotive owner and/or operator or the FRA inspector. At this time, the locomotive owner and/or operator shall complete, update and verify the locomotive specification card (FRA Form No. 4), to reflect the condition of the boiler at the time of this inspection. See appendices A and B of this part.

(b) Filing inspection reports. Within 30 days of completing the 1472 service day inspection, the steam locomotive owner and/or operator shall, for each steam locomotive inspected, file in the place where the steam locomotive is maintained and with the FRA Regional Administrator for that region a report of inspection (FRA Form No. 3), and a completed FRA Form No.4. See appendix C of this part.

Best,
DC


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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:24 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm
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It was reported here (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40615&start=30) that the flues were being installed in mid-2017. 1309 is well into it's first 15 year cycle.

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Last edited by TrainDetainer on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 616
Donald Cormack wrote:
In the case of a new locomotive or a locomotive being brought out of retirement, the initial 15 year period shall begin on the day that the locomotive is placed in service or 365 calendar days after the first flue tube is installed in the locomotive, whichever comes first.

I don't quite understand the logic in this requirement, it seems like it would encourage restorations to do the boiler work last rather than get to the most problematic job before everything else. Is it an issue with corrosion on a sitting locomotive? Opinions?


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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:03 pm 
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PMC wrote:
Donald Cormack wrote:
In the case of a new locomotive or a locomotive being brought out of retirement, the initial 15 year period shall begin on the day that the locomotive is placed in service or 365 calendar days after the first flue tube is installed in the locomotive, whichever comes first.

I don't quite understand the logic in this requirement, it seems like it would encourage restorations to do the boiler work last rather than get to the most problematic job before everything else. Is it an issue with corrosion on a sitting locomotive? Opinions?

I get your point, but imagine you did all the work, the boiler is on the frame and it looks great except the internal stuff. Then, you started putting flues in and found you needed to remove the boiler from the frame for something you never could have known about before you got the flues back in there...

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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 616
p51 wrote:
I get your point, but imagine you did all the work, the boiler is on the frame and it looks great except the internal stuff. Then, you started putting flues in and found you needed to remove the boiler from the frame for something you never could have known about before you got the flues back in there...

I guess that sort of is my point, you are doing a $1M dollar restoration and one component only has a clock running for 15 years and 365 days. Wouldn't you be encouraged, where possible, to put the flues in as late as possible so you can maximize the years of use before you need to tear the whole thing apart again? It just seems that the requirement would hurt small operations with volunteers who want to make sure the boiler is right before they start on the running gear, which may take several years itself.


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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:41 pm 

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A big part of this, though, is that I think the original planning and critical path was made up assuming the locomotive would be finished on its original schedule, before some of the state payment follies and the bearing-brass stealing spree. It would not surprise me that the tube scheduling was done precisely with the 365-day criterion in mind. Things didn't work out that way.

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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:52 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:38 pm
Posts: 63
Great Western wrote:
Congratulations on this latest success.
Forgive my ignorance, and please, I mean nothing negative by the following questions. I am just curious. What is the reason for firing up at this point in the restoration? Or is it simply a case of showing the flag and keeping everyone engaged?
Thank you, and best wishes to all involved with this project.


This fire up is to prove the repairs of the pressure vessel that have been performed to this point. This could also show if there are any other items that may need attention before it is put into service. Since the clock is already running for the 15 years, it will not make a difference to the available time. Who knows, maybe the WMSR may have plans to run the engine frequent enough that it will come due for this inspection because of service days rather than the 15 years.

Ed


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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:37 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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Overmod wrote:
A big part of this, though, is that I think the original planning and critical path was made up assuming the locomotive would be finished on its original schedule, before some of the state payment follies and the bearing-brass stealing spree. It would not surprise me that the tube scheduling was done precisely with the 365-day criterion in mind. Things didn't work out that way.

I'm not criticizing the WMSR, I am actually criticizing the FRA rule, it doesn't make sense to me, what is it about sitting for 15 years that make the flues suspect? The 1472 days of service rule would seem to be enough to prevent tube failure. I guess it could be to guard against fudging the in service numbers, I can think of operations in the past that would have tried that trick, but not really any now.


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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:53 pm 

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Location: southeastern USA
It's not about suspect flues - it's about gaining access to the interior of the boiler to determine the extent of deterioration and wear for recalculating the Form 4 and defining any necessary repairs or alterations to bring it back into compliance for another cycle. Unless the flues you pull have problems, you can safe end them and put them right back in again.

Does anybody know of a situation you only learn about when flues are reinstalled? If such happens to you, you might question your ability to competently inspect and repair the boiler in the first place........

But again: there's certainly regulatory incentive to avoid installing tubes and flues until the majority of other heavy work and reassembly is complete. This isn't a technical issue - it's about project management and priorities which, as Bob points out, has been particularly difficult in this instance. I think that once she's in service, she'll get plenty of use and earn her next overhaul nicely.

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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:27 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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Dave wrote:
It's not about suspect flues - it's about gaining access to the interior of the boiler to determine the extent of deterioration and wear for recalculating the Form 4 and defining any necessary repairs or alterations to bring it back into compliance for another cycle. Unless the flues you pull have problems, you can safe end them and put them right back in again.


That makes sense, thanks for the clarification Dave.


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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:12 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
Railbreaker wrote:

This fire up is to prove the repairs of the pressure vessel that have been performed to this point. This could also show if there are any other items that may need attention before it is put into service. Since the clock is already running for the 15 years, it will not make a difference to the available time. Who knows, maybe the WMSR may have plans to run the engine frequent enough that it will come due for this inspection because of service days rather than the 15 years.

Ed

The 1472 day limit is 4 years of daily running. 1472 days in 15 years is about 90 "service days" per year. That's more than most preserved steamers will get, except for places like Strasburg or The Valley which operate steam daily.


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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:20 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:09 am
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aswright wrote:
1309 will be coming into service lettered for "Western Maryland", not "Chesepeake & Ohio". Eventually, 1309 will be lettered/numbered as Western Maryland #960.


Has this been announced by the WMSR? I'm just curious. If it has been, then, apparently, I didn't see that. If they do plan do to this, are they also planning to redesign #1309 (as best as they can) to resemble a Western Maryland M-1a class 2-6-6-2?

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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:22 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:31 pm
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SteamEnthusiast4000 wrote:
aswright wrote:
1309 will be coming into service lettered for "Western Maryland", not "Chesepeake & Ohio". Eventually, 1309 will be lettered/numbered as Western Maryland #960.


Has this been announced by the WMSR? I'm just curious. If it has been, then, apparently, I didn't see that. If they do plan do to this, are they also planning to redesign #1309 (as best as they can) to resemble a Western Maryland M-1a class 2-6-6-2?


Can't comment about the number but the tender is masked for the Fireball......

Tim W.


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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:03 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Strasburg, PA
PMC wrote:
I'm not criticizing the WMSR, I am actually criticizing the FRA rule, it doesn't make sense to me, what is it about sitting for 15 years that make the flues suspect? The 1472 days of service rule would seem to be enough to prevent tube failure. I guess it could be to guard against fudging the in service numbers, I can think of operations in the past that would have tried that trick, but not really any now.

As Dave said, the issue is with inspecting the barrel.

When they wrote the new Part 230, They wrestled with boiler inspection issues a lot. They had to avoid making it into a "cook book", trying to cater to every possible situation, because before they knew it, the rule would be a thousand pages long.

The one-year clock between installation and operation was to do with the worst-case situation they could think of, a shoe string volunteer operation, and not that technically savvy, doing the job outdoors (so the outside of the boiler is subject to corrosion). Suppose that while they leisurely install the tubes, rain and snow come in the open steam dome, maintaining a puddle in the bottom of the barrel. Or suppose that they install all of the tubes, hydro the boiler, and then leave it half full of water for several years while they finish the rest of their restoration. The one-year rule is to guard against that.

Sure, it is uneeded for a well equipped operation that keeps their boilers indoors and drained when not in service, just as a boiler wash every 31 days is uneeded for an operation that uses top shelf water treatment. But it isn't that much of a hardship either, and sixteen years without having eyes on the inside of the barrel is as long as I would be comfortable with anyway. Nobody wants a barrel failure these days.

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Both from Goggle.

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 Post subject: Re: First Fire Up - WMSR #1309
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:11 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Strasburg, PA
Dave wrote:
Does anybody know of a situation you only learn about when flues are reinstalled? If such happens to you, you might question your ability to competently inspect and repair the boiler in the first place........


I can recall two different operations that consulted with us about how to finish their Form 4 calculations because they had questions about their throat brace dimensions, and the tubes were already in the boiler.

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Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


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