Others Have Our Problems

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:48 am

About an exhibition coal mine in Pennsylvania.

http://www.tribdem.com/news/in-the-spot ... 7ad4e.html

John Risley · **Joined:** Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm **Posts:** 928

Sad. Am afraid the paying public has gotten away from it roots to the point that they have no interest on where food, cars or other products they use daily come from. To busy living a "Fools Paradise". What you use or want comes from a store or on line shopping. Not that many years ago rail preservationists condemned fake train robberies and western movie set type entertainment at RR museums. It was considered tacky and distasteful. And maybe it still is? But marketing has to be creative to get people to come see these kind of attractions like this and most RR museums. I would love to go see this attraction, but as usual I am a minority. A candidate for museum Executive Directors job once said "I would hire midget mud wrestlers if I thought it would bring people in". Maybe he wouldn't of worked out, but I liked his desire to improve attendance. Regards, John.

"Fools Paradise" not rail related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNNpfN029R0

robertmacdowell · **Posted:** Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:21 pm

I didn't see any evidence of online promotion and certainly not online ticketing, which at their price tier they should be definitely doing.

That isn't a minor "wouldbenice" or "round tuit" or "who got time for dat", it's a critical path in this day and age. I'm aware of an organization that had a "hose squeezer" preventing online marketing and ticketing from happening. The organization was in the same predicament as that mine. One year after that guy stopped squeezing that hose, pax revenue quadrupled. I exaggerate not: It could be 5x if you bend the accounting books in a way I would not.

There are too many nonprofit leads who would rather doom the outfit as long as it means they get to keep singing "...but in the end, I did it Myyyyy Waaaaaaayyyy".

Rick Rowlands · **Posted:** Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:13 pm

I visited this place about 3 years ago. There were two men sitting at a picnic table listening to a baseball game. There was nobody else there and they were hesitant to run the train for just one visitor. But soon a family showed up and we had six people going into the mine on the train. The ride was interesting. The mine train made a big loop underground and then came back out to the station. For me it was time very well spent. Not sure how the average person would like it though.

They had very odd hours and was seldom open. They did NO advertising, NO promotion and had very little internet presence.

One motivated person with Internet savvy could have made a huge impact at promoting this attraction and perhaps staving off the closure. But it is difficult finding such people back in the woods where for all intents and purposes it is still the 1970s.

robertjohndavis · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am **Posts:** 2499

This ties in with the older thread on Altoona area tourism and the lack of cohesive marketing. The mine is just 19 miles from
Altoona and 16 miles from Horseshoe Curve.

How many Curve visitors even knew it existed?

We tied it in with family trips to Altoona, but only knew of it because of my mining jones.

as12 · **Joined:** Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:24 pm **Posts:** 115

Another issue I see is that they stated this:

Quote:

“If you don’t have the miners, how can you give them an authentic underground tour?” he said. “We’ve just run out of bodies.”

I find the coal and mining industry fascinating. I make a point to stop at every coal mine tour I see on roadtrips, and as a matter of fact I just finished a road trip where I visited three. I saw two types of guides: former coal miners and non-miners, perhaps just college kids working a summer job.

The tours by the veteran miners were certainly better in my opinion, but that definately does not mean the other tours led by non-miners were less educational or entertaining. Now this is just speculation, but perhaps this group's desire to have their tours led by real miners ended up hurting them in the long run?

Could we imagine only wanting real railroaders as volunteers at our museums? Just some food for thought.

Rick Rowlands · **Posted:** Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:49 am

I have also seen this desire to want to only use former workers as tour guides. While you may get a good description of what it was like to work in the industry, I have found that former blue collar workers usually lack the broader understanding of the industry to be able to put the historic site into a wider perspective. They usually knew their job but had little knowledge about upstream and downstream processes.

I ran into that at Carrie Furnaces where they used some former furnace workers to lead tours. They could give a great tour talking about what their job experiences were including how hot or cold it was, the dangers and of course some interesting anecdotes. But little was usually said about where the raw materials came from and where the molten iron went to, or the importance that the facility had within the overall scheme of steelmaking, industry and national development. I wasn't the ideal tour guide either as I would tend to focus on the technical side of the process and less on the worker experience. The challenge is in finding the right tour guides that can convey the worker experience tied into a broader context.

Meanwhile much closer to Pittsburgh is the Tour-ED Mine which is open 6 days a week in the summer and seems to have their act together.
https://tour-edmine.com/

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:07 am

I can say that, in decades past, they DID advertise. I know that in the 1970s and maybe 1980s I saw brochure cards for the place in tourist promotion spots in central Pennsylvania, back in pre-internet days, and I think there were some overlapping promotions in places like Altoona and Johnstown (as in "see also...." on larger regional brochures).

But I have to say, my initial impression when I saw the news was "........... are you freaking KIDDING me?!?!?!? That place still EXISTS?!?!?!?" I hadn't heard about it in ages--and I was in the region and inclined towards such tourism/preservation. It was, true to its name, "Seldom Seen."

In the past few decades I have watched mine tour after mine tour shut down for a variety of reasons. I remember Pennsylvania having about five or six; now it seems they're down to Lackawanna in Scranton and Pioneer Tunnel in Ashland, both still well-promoted. Upper Peninsula Michigan, same story and numbers (iron mining). At least some of this is structural and safety--I know for a fact that a couple so-called "mine tours" had no business being open to the public in today's litigious society, much like a lot of "tourist railroads" in the 1960s were shoestring operations that squeaked a few more miles out of derelict rolling stock on a sloppily laid loop of track.

And there's been a cultural shift as well. Today's youth are specifically, deliberately being taught, in school and the news media and popular culture, that industries that formerly drove the worldwide Industrial Revolution and employed hundreds of thousands of Americans were and are "evil" enterprises that "raped" the planet and killed millions with safety hazards and pollution, and will lead to the inevitable end of life as we know it thanks to those fossil fuels and the aftermaths of metal production. I might as well offer to show vegans a tannery or fur processing facility. (Incidentally, fur trapping remains a huge industry in the West--we just ship the pelts to Russia and China instead.)

G. W. Laepple · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1182

Hey Sandy --

You forgot the No. 9 mine in Lansford.

No9minemuseum.wixsite.com/museum

Dave · **Posted:** Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:11 pm

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Today's youth are specifically, deliberately being taught, in school and the news media and popular culture, that industries that formerly drove the worldwide Industrial Revolution and employed hundreds of thousands of Americans were and are "evil" enterprises that "raped" the planet and killed millions with safety hazards and pollution, and will lead to the inevitable end of life as we know it thanks to those fossil fuels and the aftermaths of metal production.

Well Sandy, hyperbole aside, to some extent we did. If you are going to teach history and cover the industrial revolution, you need to put it in all contexts, including today's. That doesn't make it any the less interesting to experience. My mothers family were small time coal miners and merchants who served them in a little valley south of Pittsburgh, across the Mon from Glenwood, and I grew up seeing firsthand how the landscape was altered and people were hurt in that business. I also remember being able to see the air I was breathing - and gray snow. I'm sad that I was of the last generation to experience the height of American Industrial activity in one of its centers, but I'm pleased it doesn't have to be that way for young people growing up now - and the more they understand about it, the better.

Railroad history has its dirty parts and clean parts and it's good to explain it all as part of a colorful and diverse pageant that allowed us to actually become a nation and create an economy based on more than family based agriculture and small craftsworkers.

cood101 · **Joined:** Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:18 am **Posts:** 197

Yeah, I'm not going to praise the industries that drove Pittsburgh for 150 years either, in terms of their impact. You can choose to dig your head in the sand and comment on how it's the indoctrination/destruction of the young to believe in the negatives of the industrial revolution, but that's all too easy to believe when one will not be around to see the further effects of it in another 50 years.

We have made great strides in improving industrial output versus overall impact to the world, and I'm glad for it. I remember the stories told by those 40-50 years my senior on how when they attended school, the soot from the coal furnaces would dirty the snow to a gray/black. On how they could waltz into abandoned mine sites only to find live dynamite still stored, shafts still open to the world, and gasses or contaminated water seeping from these holes in the earth.

Even now, I know the sulphur contamination from mine runoff. How it turns the creeks around me to an orange color, how little life can be supported in the contaminated areas. There are negatives that must be reconciled still.

Alas, though, we need preservation. These tours and museums are not only to show how it was, but how far we have come, and where we could be going. The loss of centers such as this mine only go to erase the struggles of the past. In rail preservation, it's no different. So denounce the modern view if you wish, I'm sure there are a host of people on this website who think steam can still outdo diesel or electric locomotives for example. Just remember though that a refusal to accept is not equivalent to something not being the case.

JR May · **Posted:** Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:05 pm

> There are too many nonprofit leads who would rather doom the outfit as long as it
> means they get to keep singing "...but in the end, I did it Myyyyy Waaaaaaayyyy".

No truer words have been posted here on RyPN. We have another group here in NJ that is on its way out only because of the people on the board who drive off any new blood and new ideas. They seem happy to ride it into the ground rather than accept the help that has been offered.

J.R.

JR May · **Posted:** Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:10 pm

When talking other attractions in the Altoona area, why is every one leaving out the Flight 93 memorial?

https://www.nps.gov/flni/index.htm

The last time I made the drive to Altoona it seems to me I rode on the Flight 93 Memorial highway.

Key is to build off this memorial, give visitors something to do other than spend a few hours at one location. Make it a multi day trip. Again, as in my previous post, some new board thinking is needed here. RR history is not a draw, the Flight 93 memorial could be helpful in generating greater attendance at the RR oriented attractions.

J.R.

EJ Berry · **Posted:** Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:44 pm

I know of four mine tours in PA's anthracite region, plus Eckley Miners' Village.

The Glen Burn Colliery was on the PRR between Shamokin and Weigh Scales. This was a working mine that gave tours, but the mine closed and so did the tours. The location was the western end of the anthracite seams.

The Pioneer Tunnel is in Ashland and is a drift mine where the mine tunnel is level with the surface. A battery motor takes riders into the mine. Usually an anthracite-burning 0-4-0T steam locomotive ("Lokey" in local parlance) works the outdoor ride, but the Lokey is getting an overhaul. Gauge is 3'6", a common mine gauge.

http://www.pioneertunnel.com/

No 9 Coal Mine and Museum in Lansford is another drift mine and are having a festival in July.

https://no9minemuseum.wixsite.com/museum

Lackawanna Coal Mine Tour in Scranton's McDade Park is a deep mine. Visitors enter by a cable-driven miners car down a slope into the mine, then walk in the mine. The rail is still there and mine motors and coal jimmies are where they were when the mine closed. Adjacent is the PA Anthracite Heritage Museum which is a modern museum that interprets the mining industry. The mine is operated by Lackawanna County, the Museum by the Comm. of PA.

https://www.visitnepa.org/listing/lacka ... -tour/196/

http://www.anthracitemuseum.org/

Eckley Miners Village is an actual coal patch town that was acquired from the coal company by the Comm. of PA and the movie The Molly Maguires was filmed there. There's no rail operation there.

http://eckleyminersvillage.com/plan-your-visit/

If you visit one of the mines remember the temperature is 50-55 degrees year round down in the mines.

Phil Mulligan

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:11 am

EJ Berry wrote:

The Glen Burn Colliery was on the PRR between Shamokin and Weigh Scales. This was a working mine that gave tours, but the mine closed and so did the tours. The location was the western end of the anthracite seams.

Not quite. It was essentially on the west side of Shamokin, right next to the main highway, and the tours closed but not the mine. Curious, I did a little background checking and research. What I found supported my "shoestring operation" description:

Quote:

On March 9, 1968, the Coal Township Board of Commissioners were informed that public mine tours would start at the Glen Burn (Cameron) Colliery in the spring. Dr. G.R. Varano, president of LAREDO, a non-profit corporation created in April of 1967, made the announcement. Tourism plans approved by LAREDO several months previous.

At the time the mine was still active and leased by H&S Coal Company. LAREDO contracted a one year lease with Helker Construction Co., a subsidiary of Kerris and Helfrick (K&H), owner of the colliery and mine. On March 22, 1968, a $7,000 loan to help finance the project was received. Of that, $700 spent was spent on advertising.
On June 22, 1968, the tour opened to the public. More than 500 people visited the tour on the first weekend. People traveled 12 minutes into the mine on a "man trip." Six guides -- four of them with a combined 100 years of mining experience -- guided visitors. "Inside men" were Anthony Schetroma, Victor Karycki, John Hine and Mike Karpiak. "Outside men" were Robert Mack and Joseph Shovlin. The tour lasted approximately 45 minutes...

The tour was officially dedicated on June 29, 1968. By mid-August, an additional $4,625 was spent on promotion to attract visitors. When the tour season ended on Oct. 27, 1968, a total of 15,499 people -- 50 percent of those from out of state -- visited the active mine. In 1969, the tour opened from May to October on weekends and holidays. A total of 18,643 admissions were counted in 1969.

On May 13, 1977, it was announced that after nine seasons the Glen Burn Mine Tour would not operate in 1977. Opened by LAREDO in 1968, the organization said in March that it could no longer afford to support the tour. The Anthracite Heritage Museum and Library turned down an invitation to sponsor it. However, the Lions Club said they would provide tour guides free of charge. Members of Anthracite Heritage, Inc., investigated to see if the tour could reopen. President Dick Morgan said to press, "Unfortunately, the $4,000 needed for maintenance repair work, the rental charge expected by mine owners and the past history of breakdowns ... are factors that support LAREDO's position that the tour can not meet its yearly operating expenses."

The majority of the Glen Burn Colliery was demolished in 1986. Demolition began in July of that year after then Sen. Edward Helfrick, co-owner of Kerris and Helfrick Inc., said DEP wanted the breaker dismantled. The breaker had been closed since midnight, May 31, 1984, when 120 members of the United Mine Workers went on strike. By Feb. 5, 1987, only the conveyor of the main part of the breaker remained. The side buildings and offices, including the an electrical building and twp boilers were spared.

Now, imagine tours IN a working mine--one that had had a fatal blast as recently as 1964!

More at https://www.daladophotography.com/Thoma ... -Colliery/

Quote:

The Pioneer Tunnel is in Ashland and is a drift mine where the mine tunnel is level with the surface. A battery motor takes riders into the mine. Usually an anthracite-burning 0-4-0T steam locomotive ("Lokey" in local parlance) works the outdoor ride, but the Lokey is getting an overhaul. Gauge is 3'6", a common mine gauge.

http://www.pioneertunnel.com/

Pioneer Tunnel actually has TWO "lokies." They only run one at a time.

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