You’re selling Altoona and the potential visitor base way short. As others have said, there is a lot more to do than trains, although my family trips there have been all about trains and I am still happily married.

Anyway, the point being is that much of Altoona is undiscovered/under promoted. No gastropubs? Try The Knickerbocker which has inventive pub food and an incredibly extensive beer list (it’s a book). Also great wings and some PRR historical ties.

Prefer a more historic inn for dinner, something you would expect in a place like New Hope? Try the US Hotel in Holidaysburg.

As fixologist says, there is much more to do. A three day weekend in Altoona is easy to fill with fun and good food.

You’re not aware of it, which isn’t surprising, neither are many railfans because the city/county does a lousy job of marketing. Altoona isn’t happening like Pittsburgh, but it’s also not a ghost town like Johnstown. It needs proper packaging.

And that’s not even discussing the proximity to attractions within a couple of hours like the awesome Idlewild or the hotel-packed stopover haven of Breezewood.

To be honest, Altoona has more going for it now than Scranton/Wilkes-Barre did at the beginning of that area’s tourism business. If they can develop it and market it as well as Lackawanna County, I think you’d be surprised how many people could be drawn there.

Like I said earlier, they just need leadership with vision.

Rob

PS: Another thing to remember is that you and I should be careful not to make assumptions on travel needs of young couples or families based upon what our generation did. Travel is more about experience and “doing” than it ever has been, and getting local flavor is a huge component (that’s one of the reasons Airbnb took off). Those regional attractions you mentioned are actually the kind of thing drawing younger travelers.

Plus, Altoona is a “car-free” destination. Amtrak and Uber are all you need (trust me, I’ve done it).

I have/had clients in the tourism business. The needs are changing. If I could work with Altoona/Blair County I would. I see nothing but opportunity. Think about what Jim Thorpe was like the day George Hart started running vs what the town/area is now. That could happen in the Altoona area. And the EBT could be a catalyst.

Let's get real folks. The odds of ANYONE coming up with $ 8M to buy this derelict railroad are well below zero.....or as the old saying goes ....somewhere between slim and none and slim left town.

Until the old man dies and the estate gets serious about turning it into cash NOTHING is going to happen except more waste of bandwidth.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Since I'm one of those "Geocache people" - there's a lot more than just a trail of geocaches in the Altoona/Orbisonia area...there are plenty to keep people busy for repeat visits.

I have it on good athority that Mr. K has offered it for sale for considerably less than that, perhaps it depends on who he's talking to, and the amount of land included (there are thousands of acres that are not part of the ROW).

At this time EBT is worth the value of the real estate, plus the scrap value of the total amount of metal on the property, because if they liquidate it, that is all they will get.

If someone does their home work and adds that all up, then meets with Mr. K to offer that, along with the notes to back it up, that should settle that. If not, it's nobody's fault but his.

The purchase price isn't the issue, the $10M+ needed to field an FRA compliant train ride is.

The purchase price is the issue because the purchase price plus the other start up costs result in an entity which has a breakup value that is greater than its value as a going concern. Mr. K. and his family have supported themselves in the salvage business for multiple generations and so they are looking at breakup value. Mr. K and his dad also have/had a desire to see the EBT stay intact and they are familiar with the amount of cash an operating EBT can throw off. From the many threads, governmental intervention as a way to absorb the startup costs is a non-starter. It also appears that no one with deep pockets to absorb the start up costs is going to come forward any time soon. So we have a stalemate because the seller values the asset by its breakup value yet he desires to see it stay intact in a sustainable way as a going concern.

The only possible way to break the cycle of the dog chasing its tail around the tree is for a group of people experienced in this sort of operation to put together a solid business plan showing all anticipated costs and cash flows. Use this to back into a number that shows what thirty-year mortgage on the property the entity can support, and use this to back into a purchase price. A reputable group should be able to get a meeting with Mr. K. and his family to present the plan and discuss the purchase price. Then, as Mr. Anderson says, it is up to the family as to what they want to see done with the EBT. If they really desire to see it remain intact with a sustainable business plan going forward, they are going to have to back off a breakup valuation and look at the going concern numbers.

If the family wants to take a bigger risk to get a possibly greater return, they could hold the note themselves and let the new owner pay them directly. This would eliminate the money going to the bank, give the family the right to repossess the assets if the new entity does not pay, allow the family to prevent the liquidation/breakup of the assets by the new entity, and provide flexibility in the term of the note. A longer term note would allow a greater purchase price but also carry more risk. Again, it would be all on the family to decide.

I can't imagine some qualified individuals haven't spoken to the owner already. Seems like a perfect candidate for American Heritage Railways for example.

What about the Railroad Museum of PA? California Sate Railroad Museum operates Jamestown...

A missing element here is grassroots local business and political support. Does anyone in Huntingdon County have any interest and the political/financial will to lead or support a bona fide proposal?

Wesley

In that case call up your state representatives and let them know you deeply care about the preservation of EBT. Surely there must be some parties that would have in active interest in this. If I were them I'd try to get in touch with Senator Casey or Governor Wolf as their best option, they may have some influence over this type of affair.

Cameron,

I don't live in Pennsylvania - just asking a rhetorical question. Local and passionate support for EBT would be important for fundraising and access to private capital (banks). Some of the FEBT folks lurking here may be able to address the local support question for us.

Wesley

Thanks to all for the comments and ideas. So now what do we do? How do we make anything happen?

1) Join. The first thing anyone reading this can (and should) do is to become a member of FEBT. If you want to learn more than you ever wanted to know about the railroad past and present, it's a great way to learn about what we have going on (yes, I'm one).

https://www.febt.org/Costore/?main_page ... cts_id=601

2) Volunteer. Come and help with the restoration work on the buildings and rolling stock. Even if you've never turned a wrench in your life, there are such a wide variety of projects led by skilled folks that you will find something you enjoy. There is always one restoration weekend per month.

Maintaining this restoration allows all future avenues to be possible.

Wayne - I don't think "we" do. I think an entity with resources, influence, and one vision instead of many will be required. I also think the owners aren't clear about their goals and expectations for the property's disposal. Prospects with big hats but no cattle have probably approached them in the past - never successfully, so that's out. From some comments posted recently, it seems there's not even general agreement as to what is owned and how........ which makes developing an offer - assuming there's first a plan to base one on - also difficult - how much is a ROW across a piece of land that may be based on mineral rights rather than fee simple worth? How much is the adjacent parcel worth until you have this one figured out? What is either worth without the other? Would you be willing to offer millions for a quit claim deed to whatever the rights turn out to be whenever they might eventually be figured out?

I'd start small and work from the shops complex as a base outward until I ran out of comprehension of what I was dealing with. If that can be the basis of an agreement, fine - then maybe you start to work on the next bits until you reach impossibility. Know the minimum you need to carry out your mission, and hope you can get at last that, otherwise what's the point?

As someone who has plenty of family in and around Huntingdon County, including directly along the EBT, I can say that the K's have not made a lot of friends in the area in the last two decades +. When the county and community DID support the EBT with the state plan, again, the K's did nothing to keep the friends who were supporting them on a community level.

It's kind of a situation where people of the county and community see it as it is - a business whose owner is looking at only himself and not the community around the railroad as being totally reliant on the survival of the railroad...it was a viable community asset to many small business owners in the area who relied on its operation...including folks who more recently put all of their money into businesses centered on the Railroad's continued operation since after seeing 50+ years of "successful" operation - it made sense. Many thought it would not be closed as long as it has....and really, it shouldn't be - but again, it is a private business....but its a "big" business and the closure has had a far and DEEP reaching effect on the community and residents around it, and some are beyond quite fed up and are not supportive of the situation that has been self created by the business.

I can recall many dinner conversations with family who were absolutely non railfans, focused on the fiasco that was the EBT's situation as far back as 1995 and their disgust with the K's.

The problem with all of that is, unlike a City where you have new incoming young residents, the areas around the EBT are mult-generational communities and disgust and angst gets passed down.

As said many times - the EBT could be the East Coast's version of the D&S/C&TS...but its going to take an 'outside' person or organization with the funding, who is not concerned about making a profit in the first 5 (or possibly more) years of full 30+ route miles of operations, to make this railroad a success.

Playing devil's advocate here.

Others mention one of the keys to the success of the C&TS and D&S is that they go through the mountains. Guess what - the EBT does too! In fact, it goes under two of them. The kicker is you'd have to restore the remainder of the railroad from Robertsdale to Orbisonia to do it, and while you're at it put the railroad in back to Mount Union. Now you have 33 miles of mainline, going through gorges, alongside and over rivers, and under mountains. That's good for well more than half a day's occupation of your time. Granted, not as spectacular as Colorado, but we can't have everything.

The problem, of course, is money. $8 million would be just the down payment to get started.

Or do it like the WW&F, rebuild a piece at a time, and get people coming back year after year to see how far you've gone.

The WW&F does amazing things with very little money. I just received their yearly financial report in the newsletter and I was astounded at how little money they work with, yet track is being laid, locomotives are being rebuilt, turntable built, bridge being installed etc. They are certainly a model to be emulated.

Fortunately for the EBT, the Friends already have a presence in the shops and the track needed to operate over is in place. Just needs ties and surfacing. Beyond the purchase price for the railroad, starting operations again with a diesel would mainly entail trackwork and a general sprucing up of the facilities and equipment. Run with a diesel until the first steam locomotive can be brought back into service.