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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:34 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 486
kevin kohls wrote:
If the FEBT were offered the Orbisonia property and rolling stock at a reasonable price "I" and I'm certain many others would be willing to donate money towards saving one of the greatest places on EARTH. I believe that many people/potential buyers have all been scared away by the unrealistic value asked for the property. It's location certainly does,hurt it, but, then again that's what kept it so original.
What say you ?

Kevin K.


If the $8 million price tag I found in a Trains article is accurate, I 100% agree with you. The amount of work needed to get that railroad functioning again makes the price tag very unfriendly. I understand the historic value of an intact steam-era railroad, but they need to be realistic.

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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:42 pm 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 981
Location: Bucks County, PA
One thing that the OP brought up, and many others here seem to overlook, is that there already is an attraction there - the Rockhill Trolley Museum. It already draws people in. Everyone else that says "there's nothing else to do" in the area doesn't seem to remember that there is something else to do, and it's right next door!

There are other places to visit as well, but many of you make it seem like Orbisonia is in a desolate world, far away from any other forms of life - so it's a little bit of a drive to get to Altoona or the turnpike, but it's not THAT far...

So then what would it take to get Mr. Kovalchick to lower his asking price or convince him to sell the roundhouse/equipment/a few miles of track, instead of the entire EBT infrastructure? Start small or moderately small, prove that this can work, and then show the state that a public/private partnership could work - instead of going to the state and asking them to pony up a ton of cash to revive something that isn't running...

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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 486
I know there's going to be a storm of replies to this, but in response to the "EBT needs to be near a tourism area to succeed" line, what tourism area is the Wiscasset, Waterville, and Farmington Railway near?

If you've got a good team in place to run the operation and market it, you become the tourism spot, plain and simple.

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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:53 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Alna, ME
Mark Z. Yerkes wrote:
what tourism area is the Wiscasset, Waterville, and Farmington Railway near?

It may be obvious, but Wiscasset is a tourism town, marketing itself as "the prettiest village in Maine." Boothbay Harbor and Damariscotta are also big (if not bigger) draws. And Pemaquid Point - which has a spectacular ocean view and very "Maine" lighthouse - is not far. The WW&F is also about an hour from Maine's largest city, Portland.

So, it's not a good comparison to the EBT; at all.

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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 486
elecuyer wrote:
Mark Z. Yerkes wrote:
what tourism area is the Wiscasset, Waterville, and Farmington Railway near?

It may be obvious, but Wiscasset is a tourism town, marketing itself as "the prettiest village in Maine." Boothbay Harbor and Damariscotta are also big (if not bigger) draws. And Pemaquid Point - which has a spectacular ocean view and very "Maine" lighthouse - is not far. The WW&F is also about an hour from Maine's largest city, Portland.

So, it's not a good comparison to the EBT; at all.


As mentioned previously, the EBT is near a popular lake are and is within an hour's drive of Altoona and State College. The key difference is that the areas in Maine market themselves.

Edit: I would like to stress that this is in no way a knock on the WW&F. On the contrary, it is an example of a railroad that does a very good job of marketing itself.

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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
EBT isn't as remote as you think it is. It's in suburbia compared to the Durango & Silverton and Cumbres and Toltec.

The problem is that the D&SNG and C&T are destinations. You ride day long excursions on on trains through amazing scenery.

The East Broad Top is a real favorite of mine, but it's not a destination. You had an hour long steam train ride through rural PA. Then you could visit the trolley operation, which seems to be doing well.

The problem is that there's really not much to differentiate EBT from other tourist railways in the state. I currently list over 50 railroad related attractions in the state. Granted, some are museums and some are model trains, but there are still quite a few train rides.

Now, imagine you're a typical PA tourist. Do you visit Strasburg, where you can very easily spend the entire day, and more than one for that matter, with the Railroad and its various attractions, the museum and the toy train museum. Or do you go to EBT, and spend maybe half a day with the trolley included?

Granted, the EBT is one of the most intact railroad facilities left. But to your typical family of four who want to take the kids on a ride on a choo-choo, that doesn't matter much.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:08 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2499
Call me an optimist, but with the right marketing and a bit of investment, the Altoona area could become a top rail tourism draw, especially for young families. Think about it this way, in the Altoona vicinity you have:

Everett Railroad steam train
Horseshoe Curve
Railroaders Museum (with potential for #1361)
EBT
RTY
Seldom Seen mine
Portage NHS
Model railroad club

That is an incredible amount of railroad-related activity for one area. All family friendly, and each a very different experience.

Plus there are some other pretty neat things to do in the area. Blair County doesn’t seem to spend a dime on tourism any more. If they do, I fear it is being misspent.

And yes, I am a believer. I try to spend at least one weekend a year in Altoona.

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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 710
Location: Wall, NJ
Lets not forget that in that same vicinity you have the 9-11 United 93 memorial which is on the other side of the Turnpike. That's actually a pretty big deal in that area so will be a long time draw.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am
Posts: 187
pennsy3750 wrote:
If you can't get past the "But CO and NM pay for the C&TS" then let's compare with the even-more-isolated Nevada Northern. They seem to make a go of it for both the public and the railfan crowd, and they're a four-hour drive from anywhere. And as the NNRY model demonstrates, you don't need to reopen the whole railroad, a few miles will do.


The NN has a few things in their favor though that helps it run in such a remote area. I don't know if this applies to the EBT to much since I am not to familiar with it, but I think the NN's key's to success are:

1) Consistent steam train rides in an area lacking of such. Ever since the Heber Valley steamers went down for shop work, the NN has become the only steam train attraction you can ride behind for eastern Nevada, western Utah, and southern Idaho. Sure, you can see steam at Promontory Summit or the Nevada State Railroad Museum but those aren't really "riding" attractions. The Virginia & Truckee and Nevada State Museum are five hours away from the NN and probably their best "competition" in the steam market in the Great Basin Region. The Grand Canyon Railroad another (sometime) steam operator is four hours away from Las Vegas, about the same length of time it takes to get to Ely. Its 8 hours to Durango from Vegas, or 6 hours from Salt Lake City. The NN is remote, but far closer than any competing experience in the region. Unless the Nevada Southern or Heber begin to run steam (and more than just the Nevada Southern's Christmas train with the Eureka on a small length of 3' gauge track last winter), the NN is the steam king in the area.

2) Aggressive marketing. Have you ever been to the NN's Facebook page? THEY ARE SELLING COFFEE MUGS WITH THEIR GANGLY SHOP CAT ON THEM! DIRT! THE CAT! That's a thing! How many other railroads do you know of that have marketed so heavily on social media that they can put some random cat on a mug and generate excitement for their railroad brand (Chessie Systems aside...)? Again, the competition really can't play the social media game as well. Seeing a bunch of fairy princesses and storm-troopers on a train at the Heber Valley Railroad Facebook page ensures that the local Utah Valley families make the hour drive to ride their route (their high ridership numbers do show it does work at getting the families out), but it isn't enough to ignite the pure level of foamer ecstasy needed to make the four hour drive to see steam that the NN's barrage of steam and preservation posts does. Yet the NN can play the kitsch role on their Facebook too, with the cat and the photos of their Christmas or Halloween specials. Being able to play up to both families wanting a fun silly train ride and hard-core foamers desperate to see steam engines is something NN's social media team has mastered. Both audiences are needed to build a successful community to come to the railroad.

Other than that, the NN is really a strong marketing hitter. On I-80 near Lake Point, Utah (4 hours away from Ely) is a giant billboard with NN 40 on it which every westbound traveler sees. NN billboards propagate other areas across the region from alongside busy interstates to small farmer's fields on back roads. At every train or travel show in the area, you bet that a representative of the NN will be there with a booth showing videos of the line and travel guides on how to get there, telling a yarn about the "Ghost Train of Old Ely." Note that Heber, Nevada Southern, and the other region railroads are absent from said travel and train shows; so again the NN is playing to a captive audience. Even the Durango & Silverton rarely makes the effort to show up at the travel shows the NN makes it too (although admittedly considering their massive following already they might not need to!)

3) Fundraising to do what visitors can't. The NN only gets 16,000 visitors a year; yet via their social media outreach and good word of mouth often run fundraisers. You might not be able to get everybody to drive across the desert to visit every few months, but if you get them to come once and have a good experience; they might be willing to support the operation from long distance via fundraising.

4) Community pride. This is a tricky one to pull off, and is really something the NN was more gifted with than earned; but they have the interest of the community both in Ely and in the region behind them. The west has a lost history of mines and railroads, the Tonopah & Goldfield, Kennecott's private electric operations in Utah, the Tooele Valley Railway, Gold Hill Railway, Salt Lake & Mercur, St. John & Ophir, etc. What is left of those other railroads and mines? Other than the two copper railroads in Arizona, most of the west's mining railroad heritage is dead. The NN is one of the last of its kind, preserved in an excellent way. Sure the Virginia and Truckee is a great mining railroad that is preserved, but its original plant is long gone; and the new buildings on site are modern. Everything on the NN though is original, and tells a story of a lost time. Now nearly everyone back west has a grandfather, uncle, or brother that worked for the mines or their railroads. Were can someone go to take their children to show them what life on the mine was like for their family member? Ely, Nevada; home of the Ghost Train!

Now back on the EBT... They aren't like the NN in the sense they have no clear competitors. Pennsylvania is FULL of tourist lines. When I went there on a family vacation I stopped by Steamtown, Horseshoe Curve and the Memorial Museum in Altoona. I did not have time to even stop by Strasburg or many of the other locations in the area. I had no idea the EBT even existed during the trip! If the EBT were to re-open though, it could use a heavy marketing push to generate interest, and fundraising $; then it needs to find what story it can tell to the community. What small narrow gauge railroad story does the line have to tell that you can't get in Strasburg or Steamtown? What community ties to the railroad will provide a bond that connects the line to its ridership? Can marketing efforts be made to expand the image of the railroad beyond the region? (One idea... Blackstone Models could use something other than the DRGW as an inspiration for their HOn3 models... Maybe get them in on a reopened EBT and convince them to release new equipment based on the Eastern narrow gauge lines).

Again the idea of a narrow gauge line back east is intriguing. The Maine Two Footers and Disney World are the only narrow gauge lines from that side of the country that come to my mind on a moment's notice. There is room there for EBT to make a mark again.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
xboxtravis7992 wrote:
pennsy3750 wrote:
Again the idea of a narrow gauge line back east is intriguing. The Maine Two Footers and Disney World are the only narrow gauge lines from that side of the country that come to my mind on a moment's notice. There is room there for EBT to make a mark again.


Tweetsie in North Carolina
Dollywood in Pigeon Forge (one of the better steam railroads in the country if you like to listen to a locomotive work... thanks to the steady grade and lonngggg (for an amusement park) train.)
Busch Gardens Williamsburg
Busch Gardens Tampa

But all of those operations are quite different than East Broad Top.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
With friends like these "it won't work because of ABC" who needs enemies?

It seems the simple reason is the owner wants an unreasonable price. A steam railroad is a "priceless treasure" but the first year would be spending crazy amounts of money to get the thing operating again... and then a huge marketing campaign to get customers out to see it (Which I fully believe they would come) and then you hope to be operating close to break even the first few years while you get your footing again.

The original poster made an excellent point... what is the current situation? Would the current "Friends" be interested in being involved and leading such a campaign? If not... it would be a great time for a group to work with them in creating a non-profit group with the specific target of purchasing and reopening the line. Figuring out the actual budget needed to do so. And start an actual fundraising campaign.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:26 am
Posts: 13
I hope things work out for the EBT, , but the ride into that area from the east was always one I didn't look forward to. Just nothing out there.
The "Pennsyltucky" image that Carville spoke of is an unfortunate burden the people of rural Pa. are stuck with. I first heard that when I was asked "How are things back in Pennsyltucky?" by some people from a neighboring state. If anything kills the volunteer spirit,, This is it. Sadly, this happens in the state as well, If I do any volunteer work at a new group now, I research the group first. see what their history is , see what their mission is.
if it looks good,
Then show up with my water jug & lunch box ready to put in a days work. If that works out I become more involved. No shortage of things to do for a few years, none are RR groups.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11481
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Folks:

When we say "there's nothing to do in Orby" and folks rattle off a long list of other train attractions..... you are proving our narrow-mindedness and insularity.

A family trip spent looking at nothing but trains, unless the kids are hard-core Thomas fans, is a recipe for divorce. And Lawd Almighty help you if you DON'T have kids.

My most recent trip, I hit a WW&F steam charter and a couple five-minute visits to rail yards and stations with nothing happening. I also hit lighthouses, yarn shops, and Acadia National Park--in trying-to-snow weather--to keep the others on the trip happy. I even hit two brewpubs solo.

What's near EBT for the non-railbuff? There was an antique car museum........ still is. There's Raystown Lake. There are a couple caves and state parks. There's State College. That's it. No outlet shopping centers. No off-Broadway theaters. No ski resorts. No gastropubs. No seashores or boardwalks. The "other" attractions that are nearby--a small "zoo," amusement park over near Altoona, wineries, etc.--would make the average urban sophisticate say "are you kidding me?"

We ask for other attractions, and you point out the Everett and RTY and Horse Shoe Curve???

This is why we have an image problem. The Sheldon Cooper stereotype is the symptom, not the cause.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:16 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 219
Location: Whitefield, ME
The purpose of preserving something great should not and can not be based first on the likelihood of it turning a profit. If we ran all historical preservation upon that logic there would be very few historical sites. We, the railway preservationists, of all people, should see the intrinsic value in preserving something as wonderful and special as the EBT.

As an aside, I've just learned that in 2011, the EBT's last year of operation, the railway did actually turn a profit anyway. Location-wise, it is actually located quite well in terms of population centers.

Further, I'd argue that the EBT is differentiated from other PA tourist railways by the clear fact that it is not a tourist railway. It is simply a remnant of another era which has, somehow, slipped through the cracks of time. Ideally, the preservation of the EBT would make it clear to visitors that it is not just a tourist railroad or another train ride, but something special with a clear value beyond a pretty ride- and it is quite pretty at that.

The reality, I believe, is that people are looking for reasons why we aren't preserving so that we can justify why we aren't taking action to preserve it. The argument for preservation is clear: it is unique and of value. There is no sense in comparing it to other railways because it is, in fact, unique. The arguments against it have no basis in historical merit, rather they are based on theoretical notions about future income, etc.

Also- I'm not saying that $8 million is a steal, but it is not a bad deal either. I can't remember the last time someone purchased 6 narrow gauge steam locomotives, 1 std gauge steam locomotive, a host of cars, and extensive buildings and right of way for such a price, but maybe I missed something.

No one is saying it will be easy or cheap. What I am saying is that, despite that, it is worth it. The opportunity is now, and, as Kelly implied, it may not exist forever. People need to get organized now.

None of this, by the way, is meant as a slight to the AMAZING work that the Friends of the East Broad Top do. Without their work today, there would be very little discussion to be had as most of the facilities would be in ruins by now. Those folks understand the meaning of perseverance and scarcity and I commend them for it.

Stephen Piwowarski


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:05 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:29 pm
Posts: 50
I guess if you have never spent any time there with your family you would never know whats there.
You want to go to the theater try The Mishler Theater in Altoona or The Play House at Mcconnollstown,were we saw a hilarious play. There is a dirt track in Hesston. 3 different caverns including one by boat.
A art museum at Juniata College along with Southern Alleghenies Museum of Art in Altoona. Plus a hand full of smaller local museums.
Shavers Creek Environmental Center in Petersburg, which has a birds of pray program. It is opening a large expansion and renovation this year and this is a must see for any family.
if your a hiker or biker there is there are hundreds of miles of trails and even a Geo trail for the Geocache people. if your a kayak enthusiast there is the Juanita water trail
DelGrosso's Amusement and water park in Tipton. A great family park with free admission.
A baseball game with the Altoona Curve.

This what we found when we visited. Wait did I mention Raystown Lake and everything tied to it. Resorts, camping, boating, game fishing.

I guess everyone is right there is nothing to draw people to the area or for families to do.


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