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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:28 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Let me go one further.

Port Arthur has come off in what I have seen and read about it as an "underdog" town/city--one of those many places in our nation that other parts of the region/state probably call "the armpit of Texas," "Redneck City," "a hopeless town circling the drain," "will the last one to leave turn out the lights?", etc., with a host of civic problems (fleeing/closing heavy industry, crime, environmental contamination, deteriorating tax base, etc.) that a typical local government is all but powerless to do anything about. Even major cities such as Detroit and Bodymore--I mean, Baltimore--suffer very badly from such perceptions.

And the local governments in such towns/cities--sometimes made up of party-machine politicians, often minority (and I believe Port Arthur's is majority black/African-American)--tend to: a) react badly when their performance or competence is questioned, however rightfully they may deserve it; and b) push back hard, often with contempt, spite, and even malice, even "doubling down" on the alleged misbehavior.

I have spoken to town leaders in several places out here in the West that fit that description. I've talked frankly about the problems of being "abandoned" by the railroad, the businesses, the residents that leave and never return, the county, and even the state in terms of potential and viability. They don't react well to such attitudes "copped" at them. And, hell, I lived in Baltimore for over a quarter century, and witnessed the constant clash--actually, warfare--between the city and the rest of the state over city mismanagement, its sense of entitlement, and its constant cycles of corruption and malfeasance, from the top down.

Which is the specific reason that I not only question the wisdom of certain people who should be politically astute repeatedly, carelessly, and openly insulting the City Council of Port Arthur, but I literally blame those that did so for the outcome.

I mean, it's not like the perpetrators of these insults are "spring chickens" that are too young to have learned to temper their language and opinions with diplomatic restraint.......


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 569
Location: Winters, TX
When the scrapping of the 503 became public news, the city did an admirable job of damage control by shifting the focus of the 503's plight to losing this beloved piece of treasured history to an outsider who wanted to take it away from them. It quickly went from saving it from scrap to saving it from Jason. At that point the jig was up. No amount of political astuteness would have swayed the city's decision to hold onto it.

I doubt if they'd agree to it, but it might be worthwhile to question the city council members on their thoughts of the whole deal and what could have been done better. Given the number of decaying park engines that are owned by city governments, this scenario is bound to play out again.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:28 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:


I have spoken to town leaders in several places out here in the West that fit that description. I've talked frankly about the problems of being "abandoned" by the railroad, the businesses, the residents that leave and never return, the county, and even the state in terms of potential and viability. They don't react well to such attitudes "copped" at them. And, hell, I lived in Baltimore for over a quarter century, and witnessed the constant clash--actually, warfare--between the city and the rest of the state over city mismanagement, its sense of entitlement, and its constant cycles of corruption and malfeasance, from the top down.

Which is the specific reason that I not only question the wisdom of certain people who should be politically astute repeatedly, carelessly, and openly insulting the City Council of Port Arthur, but I literally blame those that did so for the outcome.

I mean, it's not like the perpetrators of these insults are "spring chickens" that are too young to have learned to temper their language and opinions with diplomatic restraint.......


I too questioned the wisdom of insulting the City Council. It seemed to be intended to poison the chances of any possible reconciliation of the matter of #503. Rather strange.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2557
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
If anyone who witnessed that first PA Council meeting replete with serial lieing, abject incompetence and total lack of leadership and came away thinking there was ANY CHANCE that this outfit would EVER deal with Jason in good faith..... they must exist in another universe.

I only wish Jason had taken my strong advice early on and moved on.

At least the scrappers torch was postponed for a few years.

Half a loaf is better than no loaf.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:48 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 534
Location: Danbury, CT
Ron Travis wrote:
When people so easily criticize the City of Port Arthur, I think they ought to consider how the City looks at this matter.

The funding campaign to save 503 was energized and made successful only by the crisis of preventing the imminent loss of the locomotive by scrapping. Therefore, promoting the funding campaign required promoting the evil intentions of the City Council in their plan to destroy the historical locomotive. The City and their plan had to be defeated, and this was the public theme of the Gofundme effort.

The City did not see this coming. They had quietly decided to use the engine to partly fund the cleanup effort, and at the same time, get rid of the engine that had caused the need for the cleanup. The City thought it would happen fast and quietly, and nobody would object.

Suddenly they were surprised to learn that hundreds of people had contributed to a public campaign to save the locomotive from the City’s nefarious plan. Of course the City Council was embarrassed to say the least. It was obvious in their subsequent meetings. No City Council can accept being made to look bad.

So this revelation put the Council on the defensive. Their immediate reaction was to attack the effort to save 503 as being a secret plot to steal the City’s history. In particular, they attacked Jason for assuming that Inland was the new owner of 503, and his belief that he could strike purchase deal with them without involving the City. The City Council made it clear that they still owned 503, and that they have been the owner since the locomotive had been given to the City by KCS.

So, overall, the City promoted their own plan to save, preserve, and cherish the locomotive as a beloved artifact of their own history to combat what they portrayed to be the evil intentions of those who would steal the locomotive out from under them. It was the perfect counterpunch to what they felt had been done to them by the bad press about saving 503 from them. They sought to create an image of the City being the protector of 503 to offset the image that they were the destroyer of 503.

To people here, the City’s reaction seems obviously inconsistent because the City had originally intended to scrap the engine, not caring about saving it as their history. But the messages are also playing to the Council’s constituency, and they may have been largely unaware of the City’s original intentions. For practical purposes, all of this controversy went public when Jason presented the results of his funding campaign.

In my opinion, the effort to purchase and remove 503 was doomed because it painted the City in a bad light by making their intentions the focus of needing the emergency funding. I don’t see any way that it could have been handled differently to successfully remove the locomotive for restoration.

If Jason had gone directly to the City with his request to purchase the locomotive, and done this prior to the public fundraising, the City would have felt no threat to their image, and might have seen Jason’s plan as a better option than scrapping. However, at that point, without the threat to their image, the City may have felt that immediate scrapping was in their best interest because of the uncertainty and time required for Jason’s plan to play out. The City was also under time constraints of the cleanup deadline. So the City quite likely may have rejected any offer of purchase from Jason if they had been approached prior to the fundraising.

So given all of this, I see no alternative path that might have been successful. The only hope was that the City would change their mind about the path they had started down to save the locomotive in Port Arthur. But by that time, the issue had become highly polarized with opposing feelings on both sides, so changing directions became unlikely.



Again, I was born in Port Arthur and raised in the immediate area. A good part of my family still lives there. The comments quoted above are SPOT-ON.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6399
Location: southeastern USA
I wonder.... would the fund raising have been as effective had a "bad guy" not been created as a character in this drama? Social media being what it is, after all.

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“God, the beautiful racket of it all: the sighing and hissing, the rattle and clack of the cars over the rails. These were the sounds that made America the greatest country on earth." Jonathan Evison


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 534
Location: Danbury, CT
Jason was sent barking up the wrong tree from the get-go. The City’s own spokesperson gave him incorrect information regarding the locomotive and its ownership. Jason makes contact with the “owner”, starts surveying, and leads a successful effort to raise the funds to purchase it in record time. He even has cranes and transportation spoken for. Wow! Very impressive.

Well intentioned supporters take it upon themselves to contact the media. This doesn’t help and actually puts the City on the defensive. Out comes the rug. Nothing done or said from there on out seems to help the City change their minds on the matter.

Had the locomotive’s ownership been clear from the start, Jason’s approach been slightly different, and had the supporters coordinated with Jason prior to acting, I believe the desired outcome would have had a much higher chance of success.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 270
Mount Royal wrote:
Jason was sent barking up the wrong tree from the get-go. The City’s own spokesperson gave him incorrect information regarding the locomotive and its ownership. Jason makes contact with the “owner”, starts surveying, and leads a successful effort to raise the funds to purchase it in record time. He even has cranes and transportation spoken for. Wow! Very impressive.

Well intentioned supporters take it upon themselves to contact the media. This doesn’t help and actually puts the City on the defensive. Out comes the rug. Nothing done or said from there on out seems to help the City change their minds on the matter.

Had the locomotive’s ownership been clear from the start, Jason’s approach been slightly different, and had the supporters coordinated with Jason prior to acting, I believe the desired outcome would have had a much higher chance of success.

I repeatedly told Jason he had to work with the local politicians to get what we wanted admittedly my original newspaper stunt denied him of my trust. I reached out to some Jefferson County politicos early on in search of making a deal, that didn't go too far unfortunately not for a lack of trying. There was some conversation in the local party that a young man was riling up trouble over a decrepit steamer I imagine that didn't sit too well with the town elite. Normally in such circumstances anyone would've gotten the hell out of there but Jason stood firm ignoring the fact that he was clearly unwanted. While he certainly had good intentions his motives were perceived as counterproductive to the agendas of the ruling order. This was not done in vain though, he successfully convinced the city of #503's worth and value to the greater community. He deserves credit for this worthy accomplishment under such tight circumstances


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:18 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2557
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
Remember, if your Aunt had you know whats she'd be your Uncle.

The world doesn't work on ifs.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:23 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
co614 wrote:
If anyone who witnessed that first PA Council meeting replete with serial lieing, abject incompetence and total lack of leadership and came away thinking there was ANY CHANCE that this outfit would EVER deal with Jason in good faith..... they must exist in another universe.

I only wish Jason had taken my strong advice early on and moved on.

At least the scrappers torch was postponed for a few years.

Half a loaf is better than no loaf.

Ross Rowland

Jason had a plan that he was pursuing. When the City learned of it, they felt embarrassed because Jason’s plan made them look like they were about to scrap the locomotive without asking their constituents whether they wanted to give up this piece of their history. And when the City learned of Jason’s plan, they saw that the plan had received massive publicity which included the part that made them look bad for intending to scrap the engine. So the City had a hostile reaction to all of this.

But Jason continued with his proposal and presented it as doing what was best for the historical locomotive. And because the City had clearly agreed that the locomotive was valuable and worth saving for its historical value, there was a slim chance that the City’s interest in saving the engine could be combined with Jason’s plan to restore and operate it. This was a very delicate phase while Jason’s proposal was submitted and under consideration. What could possibly be gained by publically insulting the Port Arthur City Council during this delicate time of decision?

You say that you repeatedly advised Jason to pull out of the deal. But Jason had invested in that deal, so it was exclusively his decision as to whether to pull out or continue.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:41 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
This was a noble and excellent effort to accomplish a change in what was going to conclude in a preservation disaster. Jason went above and beyond the call to duty. I, for one, am proud to have been part of the proposed solution.
The result is not what any of us "in the know" would have, but as Ross puts it, "it's half a loaf".
Jason did alright.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:55 am 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
Richard Glueck wrote:
This was a noble and excellent effort to accomplish a change in what was going to conclude in a preservation disaster.
In the end, does it really matter how Jason handled this, good or bad?
503 wasn't scrapped, isn't that the truly important thing? Instead of Monday-morning QB'ing this, he deserves a pat on the back for the end result, which is it wasn't scrapped.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:12 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
Richard Glueck wrote:
This was a noble and excellent effort to accomplish a change in what was going to conclude in a preservation disaster. Jason went above and beyond the call to duty. Jason did alright.


Nobody here is questioning that.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 840
Ron Travis wrote:
Jason had a plan that he was pursuing. When the City learned of it, they felt embarrassed because Jason’s plan made them look like they were about to scrap the locomotive without asking their constituents whether they wanted to give up this piece of their history.


That is EXACTLY what the City was in the process of doing. Having the locomotive scrapped with no input from virtually anybody. They didn't care one whit about the 503.

Quote:

And when the City learned of Jason’s plan, they saw that the plan had received massive publicity which included the part that made them look bad for intending to scrap the engine. So the City had a hostile reaction to all of this.


Indeed, they did (and do) look bad. This was all of the politicians' own misfeasance and outright dishonesty. They got caught, and looked foolish, which they were.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:27 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Ron Travis wrote:
Jason had a plan that he was pursuing. When the City learned of it, they felt embarrassed because Jason’s plan made them look like they were about to scrap the locomotive without asking their constituents whether they wanted to give up this piece of their history.


That is EXACTLY what the City was in the process of doing. Having the locomotive scrapped with no input from virtually anybody. They didn't care one whit about the 503.

Quote:

And when the City learned of Jason’s plan, they saw that the plan had received massive publicity which included the part that made them look bad for intending to scrap the engine. So the City had a hostile reaction to all of this.


Indeed, they did (and do) look bad. This was all of the politicians' own misfeasance and outright dishonesty. They got caught, and looked foolish, which they were.


When I say that Jason’s plan made them look like they were about to scrap the locomotive without asking their constituents whether they wanted to give up this piece of their history, I do not mean that that appearance was only an appearance without substance. What I mean is that the negative aspect of the City's plan had been for the first time revealed to the public.

But my larger point is that the City's reaction to Jason's plan was entirely predictable because it made the City Council look bad. Another point to consider is that we always say that if a person owns a locomotive and you suggest that they should rebuild it in a certain way, we are told that the person making the suggestion should go and buy his own locomotive if he wants to have a say in how it is preserved.

I wonder how the City felt when being accused of wanting to let 503 rot in Port Arthur when others were offering a much superior solution. They did comment that they felt like outsiders were coming into their town and telling them what they should do with their locomotive.


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