Again, stop with the uninformed ignorance.

Sure, government ownership of the track answers all your problems, Just ask the Catskill Mountain RR folks how well that went. Or the Western Md. Scenic. Or Cass.

By the same argument, since Amtrak is a "government operation" I should be able to just go to Amtrak and ask them to give me the equipment they're retiring, right?

The details of the regulatory environments are slightly different, true, since BR nationalization in 1948 and the subsequent formation of Network Rail in the 1990s. But, once again, most of the current heritage railways in Britain enjoyed no real ease in starting their railways. And what applies today had pretty much no relevance in the 1960s and 1970s when most UK heritage railways got their starts, just as today's problems with CSX, NS, BNSF or UP have no relevance to how Cass, the Arcade & Attica, Steamtown's various incarnations, the Heber Valley RR, the Black River & Western, Valley RR, Conway Scenic, Black Hills Central, etc. got their starts.

Many, if not most, of the extant British heritage lines have had to relay track from scratch, rebuild large bridges to replace removed ones or bridge new highways, and/or rebuild ruins of stations, signal boxes, turntables, and other infrastructure to restore service to lines and/or expand their operations. They didn't just get a steam loco and cars and pick up service the day after BR left (well, with maybe one or two exceptions). The Titfield Thunderbolt is a work of fiction, folks! Imagine, say, rebuilding the East Broad Top and having to rebuild the concrete arch bridge and/or the Pogue steel truss bridge. And the Strasburg had to move in or build all their stations, shops, and other structures.

For the love of all that is holy, stop looking high and wide for "excuses" why the Brits do it better than we do, and instead bring your OWN game up to their level. Your "sour grapes" are not only exceedingly annoying and insulting to the hard work of the British preservationists, but they're almost flat-out wrong. You want the government to underwrite your fun--I mean, history preservation with red-ink money? CONVINCE THEM you're worthy of it. Get the state you're in to set up a lottery ticket with proceeds to go to history preservation--and then go compete with every other history group in the state for that money.

Each summer I have the good fortune to visit my son, daughter in law & 2 grandchildren who live in London, UK. On 9 September, 2011 we rode on a train pulled by steam locomotive 70013, the Oliver Cromwell, a Class 7, 4-6-2 Pacific, from London’s Victoria Station to Southampton (the 1930’s boat train’s route) to Weymouth, then back to Waterloo station, a trip of more than 12 hours riding on a carriage furnished with white table linen. What was surprising and standing in total contrast to how Americans do steam rail trips was the train was routed on British main lines from and to the nation’s busiest stations.

At times, again on Britain’s main rail routes, my GPS indicated the 22 carriage train packed with passengers exceeded 70 MPH-, blasting through city and town stations where large numbers of eager brit steam rail fans crowded to see and photo this amazing spectacle. Sort of like operating a trip with matching heavy weight cars pulled by a restored NYC Hudson departing New York’s Grand Central, traveling to Albany and beyond, then returning to Penn Station- at speed!

By sad contrast here in the US, the world’s richest country, there are very few steam locos, if at all, pulling larger trains at speed on major rail routes. Best we can do is to infrequently, like every other decade, send out a steam engine with a few cars with disparate histories on some rural routes throttled back to 25-30 MPH staying far away from major population centers, and attached to an ugly, grunting mismatched AMTRAK diesel. And tort attorneys lurking at grade crossings to quash any more such excursions- not to mention weak kneed CEO’s who more likely than not perceive steam engines as dangerous hunks of steel that better belong at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean fastened to old sunken steam ships.

Oh for crying out loud...

The mention of the exhaust nozzles was an example of a discussion topic that was posted to Facebook instead of to a forum that should be the GO TO place for discussion about rail preservation technical issues.

The mention of the UK was as an example of how another country seemingly has more ways for rail preservationists to communicate with each other than we do. I was trying to make the point that we should finally move off of dead center about making RYPN a better resource for preservationists. I thought I was fairly plain in making that case.

But what do I get, 2 pages of people going off on fifty different directions, practically ignoring the core point that I was trying to make.

Oh well. Maybe that in itself speaks volumes as to why our "industry" is so disjointed.

Some of us are still waiting for the report on the UP Challenger's new exhaust Nozzles to comment further.

Robby Peartree

Lessons learnt, moved on, found the solutions. Those who need to know, know. END

As far as I see, the main reasons for the differences between the US & any other country, in terms of rail preservation, is that
(a) a LOT has been preserved - likely too much - and has overwhelmed the infrastructure, audience and volunteers

(b) Nowhere else in the world has had as large a system, as many railroads, as much equipment, as many manufacturers, as many museums (and "museums"), as much stuff "preserved" (in terms of railroads).

(c) Balkanization of interests, parochial interests and prejudices. This came up in the 503 discussion, it permeates every facet of the preservation movement. I saw one person denigrate Strasburg as "boring". Another use the term "Illinois Rust Museum". The list goes on. So many deeply seated divides that spawn disparate notes, letters, postings, rants, raves and other assorted negative feedback filters to the general population - whether you believe it or not, the cliques and prejudices are noted and the reactions are a vote of feet and money - away from the preservation movement

(d) People in this country prefer to be willfully ignorant & uninformed , especially if it might mean they are "wrong" or at the mercy of the knowledgeable and informed "elite".

(e) The preservation movement is (almost) completely unprofessional - in both main meanings of the word - people would rather "go with what they know" than learn anything, and acknowledge there might be - just might be - someone who knows more and is willing to share; people who would castigate other efforts even while not directly affected (see the UP Steam Dept. effort in the past 5 years and reactions thereto).

(f) most of preservation effort is a party of 1-10 core people who, by dint of their being first or the only survivors of a given effort, feel anyone else is not welcomed on board. Give us your money while we insult everything about you, what you hold dear and/or what you believe in (and the inability to see that one's beliefs as just as normal, rational and correct as yours)

(g) those who, rather than reading and comprehending the gist of a post would rather espouse their feeling for the poster, the organization that poster might be involved with, the region of the country they might live in or branch off on another topic entirely.

(h) The medium is not the issue.

What does that mean?

Well, be direct next time and don’t beat around the bush. Good topic though.

So, question is... Why was that discussion had elsewhere and not here on RYPN? Could it be as simple as creating a RYPN page on Facebook or on other social media outlets to provide higher visibility and to steer those in need of information to RYPN? Maybe RYPN needs to make itself more accessible.

Would you mind saying where on FB that discussion was so those of us interested in that kind of thing could see it?

To Mr Travis

If you do a search of 3985 exhaust you will find five pages of material. Suffice to say a report was promised and then not delivered when things did not go well. Problems with the idea of modifying a steam locomotive without understanding the state of technology the locomotive has can lead to failure. A couple of us were talking about the improvements observed from the lempor exhaust installed on two locomotives. One was on a 1906 2-8-0 that ran its standard exhaust historic exhaust and a 2-8-2 that had been modified from its historic design by use of a star nozzle. It is believed by some that the 2-8-0 responded better to the changes because the exhaust technology was older and the cylinder castings were more free flowing than the 2-8-2.

In the end you will find the most modern of steam locomotive design they pushed exhaust nozzle design. A lot of the modern foreign designs championed today match the performance that US railroads were experiencing in the 1940's. If you want to learn about the development of locomotive exhaust take time to read the book the Fire Burns Much Better Now.


To Mr. Day

Your comment saying who needs to know know does not promote discussion or open communication. I am sad to see that you are apparently threatened by other people having knowledge. If we are going to promote historic railroad preservation we need to engage and encourage people and not hold secrets because of our personal egos.

Robby Peartree

Modern design - Nigel has actually built more than anybody I know, Jos Koopmans has studied it and written about it more than anybody else I know. Both men are brilliant. Both also know a nozzle is just one component of an engineered combustion system which starts under the grate and ends above the stack. Looking at what can be retroactively improved while maintaining unaltered other parts of the design is interesting, but naturally gravitates to those things that are easiest to replace with minimal disruption.

Somebody compare the Lima oil burning front end with Master Mechanics if you want to see a real difference anybody can retrofit for an improvement on an oil burner. It's pretty much limited to the nozzle and petticoat pipe assemblies only.

FWIW, the SteamTech Yahoo group is currently talking a lot about oil burners, both in terms of what was done and how, and what might be done now and in the future.

Facebook probably doesn't know about that group or this one - and, politically incorrect as it may be, apart from probably a few of the more knowledgeable participants on facebook, that's probably for the best in terms of preemptively separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to value of information - also apparently for privacy.

I do recall discussion about modifying the exhaust on the U.P. Challenger. I would think it valuable to publish the outcome of such an experiment no matter whether it was successful or not. Either way, it would further the knowledge base.

,

Am I reading this right? RyPN is more difficult to access than Facebook? I have it bookmarked, one click and I'm there. FB I have to log in to read, and then get hit with tons of 'sponsored' crap. So call me an old school old fart; I don't care.

EDM
Grumpy, NJ

A lot of people have Facebook on their cell phones and are constantly connected. People can access RYPN just as quickly, if they choose to do so. So, why don’t more people choose RYPN? Now, that’s a good question.