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 Post subject: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:42 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
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The Utica Observer-Dispatch newspaper has published an article about the Utica and Mohawk Valley Chapter NRHS equipment that is on public display at the Utica, NY Children's Museum:

Utica, NY Observer Dispatch newspaper: Departure time soon for train display at Utica museum

There is also an update in the chapter's newsletter, Tower Topics, but that is a paper publication, so I cannot link to it!

Here's an earlier RYPN thread, back when the equipment was available for donation:
RYPN: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donation

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (Nov 2013
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:14 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
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I just got around to reading the November issue of Tower Topics, the newsletter published by the Utica and Mohawk Valley Chapter NRHS. Unfortunately, quotes for moving the equipment from the Utica Children's Museum to the Remsen, NY depot have come in higher than expected. To help, you can send a check (deductible) to Remsen Development Corporation, PO Box 263, Remsen, NY 13438. Website: The Remsen Depot, Remsen Development Corporation

The Tower Topics article also includes describes the latest bizarre action taken by the management of the Utica Children's Museum:
Quote:
A [Utica, NY Children's Museum] trustee recently called our lawyer, saying he was to be liason for the equipment move. A few days later, he reported he'd resigned from the board and that his authority to deal with us had been "revoked". The CM next sent us a letter demanding we pay "rent" for having our equipment on their grounds - $200 per unit, per month, for 12 years, total $86,400 - before they'll allow it to leave! Sure.

I am personally saddened by the situation - I used to spend Saturdays at the museum, when I was a child (decades ago). I also remember all the efforts Utica and Mohawk Valley Chapter NRHS members made to get that equipment restored and onto the Museum's property. (I was too young to help out, back then). The Children's Museum has really gone downhill since then, judging by this thread on Topix.com: Utica, NY Topix - Marlene Brown and the Children's Museum

The Utica Observer-Dispatch has reported on the dispute several times; here are some of their past articles:

Group seeks new home for historic trains - Children’s Museum raises safety concerns about display on its property (October 6, 2010)

Trains at Children's Museum could be moved (February 15, 2011)

Departure time soon for train display at Utica museum (September 6, 2013)

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:46 pm
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$84,000?

Uuugghhh

Goof luck to U&MV!


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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:30 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
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thebigham wrote:
$84,000?

Uuugghhh

My apologies for not being clearer -- the $86,400 "rent" bill is, IMHO, a fantasy of the Children's Museum.

The funds that The Remsen Depot are raising will be used to pay for the move of the equipment. That is probably very expensive because the equipment is on the south side of the CSX (former New York Central) mainline while the Mohawk Adirondack & Northern yard (and line to Remsen) is on the north side of the CSX main.

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:15 pm
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We at the ALCO Historical & Technical Society are also working with Remsen Depot on this project (for the RSC2) and to say that the cost to move the equipment is high is a bit of an understatement. I was personally shocked at how much it would cost just to get the stuff across the parking lot to live track. We are currently seeking new bids on the project form other companies the will hopefully not assume the two groups are made of money (the first two companies quotes were staggering). I'm afraid that if the stuff cannot be moved for an earth-bound sum of money, scrapping may have to be considered (no one wants it to come to that).

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:35 pm 

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Here is a Google Map "birds-eye" showing the U&MV Chapter's equipment, Utica Children's Museum, Utica Union Station and the Adirondack Scenic:

Google Maps Birds-Eye View

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
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Here is a screenshot of the google map aerial view, to which I have added a few labels, in red text.
The U&MV Chapter equipment consist of the green RSC3 diesel, stainless steel diner next to it and the red PRR caboose.

The equipment doesn't have to move very far to reach live track, but there isn't a lot of room for cranes to work in.


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Utica Union Station - Labeled.jpg
Utica Union Station - Labeled.jpg [ 139.67 KiB | Viewed 7097 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:47 am
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Location: www.frrm.org
You might want to contact a house mover in the area, We have used a house mover in Florida to re-locate several cars, cabooses, a depot and a steam locomotive. They did it by jacking up the equipment to clear any obstructions such as curbs, etc. The raised equipment then had dollies placed underneath to handle the load. Instead of having the equipment loaded on flatbed trucks, it was only a few inches above the street surface. No cranes were used and the cost was far less because of that. You still have to deal with clearances, road permits, etc but the mover did all of that.

Good luck in your move.


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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:38 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
Lightweight temporary track across the parking lots, one lift and swing onto the NYSW track. You can lay the temp track yourself. I can see a lot of ways to complicate it and make it costly. I don't think you can negotiate the streetcar radius curve you would need to run up on top of the NYSW track and drop down to it on ramp rails. Other possibilities would include house movers to simply slide them over on dollies, or buiding a temporary turntable over the NYSW and CSX lines, but if CSX gets a lot of traffic, best to leave them alone. This presumes the NYSW can switch you on to to ASR and you don't have to get across all those tracks......

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:41 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
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Jim Herron wrote:
Good luck in your move.
I am not personally involved in the move -- I'm merely posting about since RYPN readers have a lot of expertise and experience moving equipment.

Dave wrote:
Lightweight temporary track across the parking lots, one lift and swing onto the NYSW track. You can lay the temp track yourself.


The display track is 3 to 4 ft higher than the street and parking lot. Here is the link to the google street view; below is a screenshot.
Attachment:
UticaStreetView2.jpg
UticaStreetView2.jpg [ 195.24 KiB | Viewed 6877 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:35 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
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What a difficult spot to get this stuff out of. Wedged in tight against buildings, with that roof overhang nearly touching the equipment, and hardly any room for trucks and cranes. Just try to sling the equipment without interfering with the building. There is absolutely no room on the building side for jacking, setting up a house moving rig, or most of the other alternatives to cranes. No wonder the quotes are so high.

The drop-off on the coach end would normally be helpful, but there are so many curbs and things you couldn't get a trailer in.

It looks like the best method would be to lay temporary track as far across Main Street and the far sidewalk so the equipment could be pulled forward for crane access. Even so, there's a low fence just past the sidewalk that probably can't reasonably be moved.

At least in that location, there is adequate room for cranes and floats, or house moving equipment.

City permits, street closures, night and weekend work... no way around it, this will be expensive. The panel track and any timber shims should be prefabricated and stacked neatly nearby to save time during the actual move.

Hopefully the museum will come to its senses and stop making a difficult task even harder... and it should be clearly pointed out that THEY made removal of the equipment so difficult by building ramps, decking, and a roof right up to the edge of the locomotive and coach. The "rental" threat is ludicrous... it should be pretty much cancelled out by the rental bill for using the equipment all these years.

Steve Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:03 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
4 feet is nothing....tie crib on a slope to drop it down to the level of the NYSW grade. The challenge there is to prevent runaways.....heavy dozer with a winch would do the trick.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:07 pm 

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How was the stuff put in there? No sense re-inventing the wheel here, just use what was done in the past.

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
sbhunterca wrote:

It looks like the best method would be to lay temporary track as far across Main Street and the far sidewalk so the equipment could be pulled forward for crane access. Even so, there's a low fence just past the sidewalk that probably can't reasonably be moved.


Where did I put my torch striker...

The elevation of the display track is a blessing... it will allow the temporary track to be built on tie cribs and pass right over side walks, curbs, fancy paving, etc. leaving them un-molested. Consider the damage if the display track was below grade and a trench had to be excavated through all that pavement.

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 Post subject: Re: Update on Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS Equipment (9/6/2013
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
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However, moving toward the railroad will require dismantling the portion of the deck which wraps around the coach's end, and the museum isn't exactly cooperating.

What seems perfectly sensible may not be an option.

Coming out toward Main Street is still above the height of the curbs, sidewalks, etc. but doesn't require nearly as much cribbing, and doesn't require "damaging" an already- hostile landlord's property.

Steve


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