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4004 disappears for a while
http://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41641
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Author:  car57 [ Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  4004 disappears for a while

The cover is almost complete, and asbestos abatement will begin end of next week......amazing to get up this close.

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Author:  car57 [ Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

Meant to add more pictures apologies

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Author:  Richard Glueck [ Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

I really appreciate any and all updates on the care and preservation of these beautiful machines. Thank you for getting the shots and posting.

Author:  car57 [ Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

No Problem Richard, i am project manager for this job so plenty more photos to follow

Mike

Author:  LV 601 [ Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

" THANKS" for the pictures and update Mike...

Author:  filmteknik [ Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

Has it been sitting all these years with lagging still in place? That can't be good.

Author:  Bobharbison [ Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

So what are the plans for the replacement?

I've seen various approaches, including wood spacers as well as simply removing the jacketing.

It doesn't seem like putting on new lagging would be needed, and on a non-operational locomotive, all that does is collect moisture and hold it against the boiler.

How will that be addressed?

Author:  car57 [ Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

I think we will be welding spacers in place, we will decide once the jacket is off how we proceed from there. so far the insulation is conpletely dry as was the 2000lbs of sand removed from the sand domes.

Mike

Author:  filmteknik [ Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

You need to sell that in little bottles. Proceeds to bribe a certain person to quit.

Author:  joe6167 [ Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

car57 wrote:
I think we will be welding spacers in place, we will decide once the jacket is off how we proceed from there. so far the insulation is conpletely dry as was the 2000lbs of sand removed from the sand domes.

Mike


Mike, you can use plastic wood spacers, I think that is what was used on CNR 6167. CNR 6213 used cedar (I think) bank in 1985 - or any wood that can resist rotting.

When we first started working on 6167, I too scooped up a small "specimen" jar of sand from one of her sand domes!

Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

joe6167 wrote:
car57 wrote:
I think we will be welding spacers in place, we will decide once the jacket is off how we proceed from there. so far the insulation is conpletely dry as was the 2000lbs of sand removed from the sand domes.

Mike


Mike, you can use plastic wood spacers, I think that is what was used on CNR 6167. CNR 6213 used cedar (I think) bank in 1985 - or any wood that can resist rotting.


Welding, to the boiler shell? Wouldn't each weld be viewed as a pit if and when the boiler was surveyed for return to operation?

There has been long debate about what to replace lagging with on a display engine. The idea is to space the jacket away with something to allow air to circulate, so that water isn't held in close proximity to the steel and cause rust pitting. Some people have suggested wood blocks, but it would seem to me these have the exact same problem; if the new jacket leaks (it will, in time) the blocks will get wet, and hold moisture against the steel, same as the lagging. I should think cedar would be one of the worst choices, in that it contains a lot of tannin, which is corrosive to steel. Be a real shame to strip the boiler in fifty years and find a pattern of pitted patches that match the locations of the spacer blocks. Plastic lumber might be better, but would be better yet if most the contact surface was routed away, leaving just little feet, which would promote both drainage and air circulation, but sounds like a lot of work.

I have seen one job that was done using lengths of PVC pipe wired to the boiler on about 6" centers. The round pipe has the advantage of minimal contact area, but the continuous lengths would seem to impede air circulation.

I have often wondered if concrete re-bar bolsters (supports) wouldn't be a good choice.
Image

These are available in heights from 3/4" to well over anything one would need in 1/4" increments, so should be able to be matched to the original lagging thickness. They could be fastened in place by tying them to stainless steel wire hoops looped around the boiler, same as the original lagging was fastened. They are available in plain steel, galvanized, or stainless steel. I have no idea how cost effective they would be, but seem to be the perfect solution.

I am thinking that the "upper level" bolsters, which have three longitudinal members, would be the strongest and easiest to work with, but the version with only one long member and bent metal feet are likely cheaper and may be workable. Below is the link to the complete Dayton Superior catalog; there are also other suppliers of similar products.

http://www.daytonsuperior.com/docs/default-source/handbooks/bar-support-handbook.pdf?sfvrsn=6dffd560_34

Author:  conopt_rail [ Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

I grew up in the industrial insulation business in NY and NJ in the 60s to the 80s, my business sold stud welding machines. There are 2 types. An arc welder that creates a penetrating fusion weld and then there is the capacitor discharge stud welder that does far less penetration. It puts something like 1400 amps through the cable in a couple of milliseconds. You can touch the weld right after. These are now popular with autobody shops. It is a bit of an art to set it up right to work with paper thin sheet metal but no big deal with heavy steel.

BTW, I kept one of each when I closed my business. I have a PW 1000 and an Arc 750. Both were made by HA Jones in Dayton, OH. At this point, I am not really attached to them anymore as my career path lead in different directions. Someone near Trenton NJ can probably talk me into a donation or nominal sale.

It always amazes me that folks want to use conventional welding equipment to attach studs when the technology to do it right has existed for years and the it is cost efficient.

Author:  Lincoln Penn [ Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4004 disappears for a while

Dennis Storzek wrote:

Welding, to the boiler shell? Wouldn't each weld be viewed as a pit if and when the boiler was surveyed for return to operation?


Not unless the welder got completely carried away with what he was doing. Should only require tack welds.

The likelihood of this locomotive ever being returned to service ranks right up there with the one in the park in Omaha, in terms of difficulty and expense to get either of them anywhere near live rail again. There are far better (easier and cheaper) ones to get back onto live rail than either of these two.

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