It is currently Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:05 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 131 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
dinwitty wrote:
Sorry, I know a little more than what your reading. evidence or non-evidence can say a lot. I have jurured a few times and I know what to expect and I am watching the clues.


By your analysis, you should be able to diagnose yourself and write scripts because you've probably sat in a doctor's office for a bit. Frankly, this statement tells me everything.

Why am I here? Intelligent conversation regarding preservation and preservation-related issues.

_________________
--
David M. Wilkins
<Insert Impressive-Sounding Job Title Here>
<Insert Impressive-Sounding Organization Here>

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:01 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
wilkinsd wrote:
dinwitty wrote:
Sorry, I know a little more than what your reading. evidence or non-evidence can say a lot. I have jurured a few times and I know what to expect and I am watching the clues.


By your analysis, you should be able to diagnose yourself and write scripts because you've probably sat in a doctor's office for a bit. Frankly, this statement tells me everything.

Why am I here? Intelligent conversation regarding preservation and preservation-related issues.


What I hope others may read this and grasp ideas and use them.

overNout


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:38 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:42 am
Posts: 10
Location: Either behind my desk or on my phone
wilkinsd wrote:
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:

So with that, I conclude this missive and yield the floor to the masses for comments and criticism.


Eric,

What exactly is your success rate as a pro se or represented litigant in front of the STB? I think that alone would help us evaluate how good your analysis is.


When I first decided to follow my grandfather into the practice of the black arts one of the things he told me was that I needed to remember that something noticeably less than 50% all litigants win. With that in mind I think we should remember that the real value of legal colloquy is not the percentage of Wins v Losses which it provides but the advance in legal scholarship. Eric's missives have great value in that regard as they open vistas in reasoning which influence how we view and resolve various issues. Whether we view his analysis as correct is hardly relevant. After all it works both ways. I'm certain that he has viewed both my and my grandfather's analyses as incorrect in the past. In fact I believe I could use this as a basis for an exercise in deconstructing arguments.

There should be no real argument that the Board has the authority to determine the current common carrier status of a line of railroad and if the 3rd Circuit were to appoint a panel to sit as the Special Reorganization Court to hear this it would mean that the Attorneys Recovery Act of 1973 would be on its 4th generation of practitioners. I like that idea but we're not arguing Penn Central, we're arguing Ulster County.

Thank you Eric for the enjoyable reading. It made for a pleasant diversion.

Meghan

_________________
Meghan

Subscribing to my grandfather's philosophy that no case is so weak or cause so harebrained that somebody cannot be found to handle it in exchange for a sufficient retainer up front.


Last edited by Meghan on Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:04 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 258
Location: Cambridgeshire UK
https://www.facebook.com/allaboardforas ... =3&theater interesting FB post


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:15 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 125
Location: Pittsburgh
In this instance “abandonment” is a specific legal term of art which describes an action by a unit of the Federal government under which a rail route ceases to be a common carrier railroad. Once abandoned, it instead becomes a really long and skinny parcel of real estate which just happens to have railroad tracks upon it. That evolution doesn't, by itself, trigger any change in real estate status, such as reversionary rights.

The evidence produced by Ulster County’s attorney strongly (albeit imperfectly) suggests that both Penn Central and the New York State Department of Transportation made good faith efforts to abandon the Catskill Mountain Branch under the detailed procedures specified in the Regional Rail Reorganization Act of 1973. Those procedures took precedence over the usual abandonment requirements of the Interstate Commerce Commission. Through the 3R Act, Congress essentially eliminated the ICC as the governing party for line abandonments by the bankrupt northeast railroads, instead assigning that authority to the United States Railway Association.

Thereafter, the Catskill Mountain Branch still physically existed, but was no longer a common carrier line. With no customers to be served, Conrail apparently severed the connection to the West Shore main line at that time. The connection was later restored, as noted in an earlier message by eehiv, but that action alone wouldn’t have made the Catskill Mountain line a common carrier again. Instead, it was merely a private sidetrack, coincidentally owned by Ulster County, which led to an industrial customer. Since Ulster County is not a common carrier, and Conrail apparently didn't assume ownership of the line beyond the connecting turnout, the track would not have resumed the status of a common carrier route. As such, it was really no different than any other privately-owned spur track leading from a main line to an industry or industrial park. Such private tracks are routinely built, operated, and removed without first seeking permission from Federal transportation regulators such as the STB.

I really feel sorry for the hardworking volunteers of the Catskill Mountain Railroad, but I suspect the Fat Lady has sung. All of these legal machinations are not going to bring back lost opportunities. The chances of ever running all the way to the Ashokan Reservoir - much less connecting to the site at Phoenicia - are likely nil. I suggest they focus on making the segment of railroad left to them the best tourist railway possible under the circumstances and, in doing so, prove their worth to the local, regional, and state politicians.

/s/ Larry
Lawrence G. Lovejoy, P.E.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
Posts: 364
Finally, somebody gets it for what it is.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
David Notarius wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/allaboardforashokan/photos/a.351636028276336.1073741829.351628611610411/1390925007680761/?type=3&theater interesting FB post


yeh, somebody posted a picture on this forum with a train on it next to the reservoir. There's some campaign about the fresh water reservoir serving New York and protecting it, and I get that but there's an overfear about a derailing engine spilling fuel, but trains have operated on that line for a long time. Thats the hint the Revitalization group is at showing an electric engine/loco/car on their website and to go electric, no fear to fuel spillage. Because of the Rivitalization groups STB plug, they are pushing for this rail line. This makes to me any abandonments real or suggested or never happenned moot. We're looking at trying to get a future back for the rail line and the Rivitalization group is going for it.

A few other thoughts. the city ot Norfolk restored the former Norfolk Southern electric line and they were surprised with the ridership.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide_Light_Rail

The other issue is the trail, not everybody interested in visiting the area would be able because they are not sporty, this means older population, amongst others in wheelchairs and so on. Riding the train is an easier availability than trying to crank yourself there. Theres more I could add but I just don't have all the time in the world, real life calls, but the Rivitalization group has put their mark on.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:51 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:35 pm
Posts: 332
Location: NJ
Norfolk and the suburbs surrounding it have over 700,000 people.

Kingston has just over 23,000.

I don't think that is valid comparison.

_________________
cv the civil E in NJ


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:32 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
cjvrr wrote:
Norfolk and the suburbs surrounding it have over 700,000 people.

Kingston has just over 23,000.

I don't think that is valid comparison.


I am providing inspiration, what can happen here is at a differrent level, people from New York travel to the area for a getaway, see the scenery, have places to go to "tourist" around. This is what the CMRR enjoys despite how the county bounces them around. The Revitalization group is looking forward to expand on the economy and use of the rail line and find the benefits for it.
The county will need to wake up and see what their actions are doing and how they can benefit from the rail line. You need some forward thinking.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:42 am
Posts: 10
Location: Either behind my desk or on my phone
It appears that Mr Heffner has most of his extension. At best it takes some time to to fact check and digest 800 some pages. https://www.stb.gov/decisions/readingroom.nsf/9855c1fb354da09b85257f1f000b5f79/23faf57eaf9a8dfc8525824e00648811?OpenDocument

To expand slightly on Mr Lovejoy's analysis of the common carrier status of the Catskill Mountain - The CMRR never received common carrier authority from either the ICC or the STB, never held itself out to be a common carrier, and never participated in any joint tariffs, interchange agreements or any of the other indices of being a common carrier railroad. If and this is a very large if, the STB were to find that the CMRR's switching of the occasional car after Conrail had constructively placed it was as a common carrier rather than as a contract switcher, that authority would probably only apply on the track which was actually used for the movement and not extend over the length of the line.

Several of us who got together last week at an industry function in Washington were discussing this over tea in the hotel sitting room before retiring at a respectable hour. (That was for Grandfather's benefit even though he and his cronies were holding down the other end of the bar). We concluded that Mr Meindertsma deserves an award for the 'Longest Pleading Ever Submitted on a Per Car Mile Basis" before the STB.

Meghan

_________________
Meghan

Subscribing to my grandfather's philosophy that no case is so weak or cause so harebrained that somebody cannot be found to handle it in exchange for a sufficient retainer up front.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Meghan wrote:
wilkinsd wrote:
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:

So with that, I conclude this missive and yield the floor to the masses for comments and criticism.


Eric,

What exactly is your success rate as a pro se or represented litigant in front of the STB? I think that alone would help us evaluate how good your analysis is.


When I first decided to follow my grandfather into the practice of the black arts one of the things he told me was that I needed to remember that something noticeably less than 50% all litigants win. With that in mind I think we should remember that the real value of legal colloquy is not the percentage of Wins v Losses which it provides but the advance in legal scholarship. Eric's missives have great value in that regard as they open vistas in reasoning which influence how we view and resolve various issues. Whether we view his analysis as correct is hardly relevant. After all it works both ways. I'm certain that he has viewed both my and my grandfather's analyses as incorrect in the past. In fact I believe I could use this as a basis for an exercise in deconstructing arguments.

There should be no real argument that the Board has the authority to determine the current common carrier status of a line of railroad and if the 3rd Circuit were to appoint a panel to sit as the Special Reorganization Court to hear this it would mean that the Attorneys Recovery Act of 1973 would be on its 4th generation of practitioners. I like that idea but we're not arguing Penn Central, we're arguing Ulster County.

Thank you Eric for the enjoyable reading. It made for a pleasant diversion.

Meghan


True, less than half of all litigants win, and even fewer than those who choose to represent themselves win. Sometimes, but not always, representing yourself tells me a lot about the relative merits of your arguments and strengths of your case. Of course, there are outliers, but Eric seems to not have had success with his theories, despite their complexity and complex nature, they seem to be unable to hold sway with the folks at the STB.

_________________
--
David M. Wilkins
<Insert Impressive-Sounding Job Title Here>
<Insert Impressive-Sounding Organization Here>

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:47 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
I don't see any "abandonement" yet, from all sources. STB isn't revealing any abandonement yet, otherwise they might be showing any or all records of abandonment from their sources. And the recent post here about the "abandonemnt" says "they are looking for it." The clock is ticking. U&D Revitalization has put the challenge on.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:59 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
dinwitty wrote:
I don't see any "abandonement" yet, from all sources. STB isn't revealing any abandonement yet, otherwise they might be showing any or all records of abandonment from their sources. And the recent post here about the "abandonemnt" says "they are looking for it." The clock is ticking. U&D Revitalization has put the challenge on.


What reality do you live in? Or what drugs are you on that allow you to live in a fantasy land? Some of our readers want to know.

Do yourself a favor and go to a dictionary and look up the word “constructive.” If you need help reading it, I can call you tomorrow and help you through the big words.

_________________
--
David M. Wilkins
<Insert Impressive-Sounding Job Title Here>
<Insert Impressive-Sounding Organization Here>

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:59 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
David Notarius wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/allaboardforashokan/photos/a.351636028276336.1073741829.351628611610411/1390925007680761/?type=3&theater interesting FB post


How do you abandon and run trains again? Apparently -de-abandoned- without notice or not abandoned.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:30 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:42 am
Posts: 10
Location: Either behind my desk or on my phone
dinwitty wrote:
David Notarius wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/allaboardforashokan/photos/a.351636028276336.1073741829.351628611610411/1390925007680761/?type=3&theater interesting FB post


How do you abandon and run trains again? Apparently -de-abandoned- without notice or not abandoned.
For (I hope) the last time: "abandonment" here means abandonment of COMMON CARRIER RIGHTS AND OBLIGATION. It has nothing to do with ownership of property or running trains. It has come up here apparently as a legal technicality concerning STB jurisdiction over the line under the National Trails Act.

Go look at the Wanamaker Kempton and Southern, or the switching operation at the Valero refinery in South Jersey. Both of these are active operating railroads with no common carrier obligation.

If you want to say that this is something invented by lawyers to confuse ordinary people I won't argue with you.

Meghan

_________________
Meghan

Subscribing to my grandfather's philosophy that no case is so weak or cause so harebrained that somebody cannot be found to handle it in exchange for a sufficient retainer up front.


Last edited by Meghan on Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 131 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: baldwin, Benjamin J True, Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot], lmckay175, o484 and 41 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: