Thanks Kelly for your stimulating post and the important conversation it has created.

When we ran the 3 year mainline steam excursion program on NJT behind C&O 614 we learned some interesting and important lessons, to wit;

1. The serious steam fan audience has declined a LOT in numbers and was ( 1996-98) FAR TOO small to support our operation even though we were offering a steam lovers dream product ( open windows, no diesels in the consist, track speed, real multiple speed runbys) and at very cheap prices. By the middle of the second year of the operation ( or around the mid point of the 24 trip program) the percentage of our ridership represented by the serious steam fan community had shrunk to the low single digits and it was never more than 15% at most.

2. Even though our trips originated in Hoboken, dead center in a market totaling 15 million people within a 30 mile radius by the 3rd. year we couldn't fill a 1,000 seat train despite further reducing the price for an all day experience to $ 55/adult and $ 40/child.

3. One of the major negatives we found was our inability to find mainline worthy cars of appropriate vintage. We were able to find 2 mainline qualified open window coaches but the rest of the 24 car train was made up of ultra modern Comet coaches or high fare 1st. class cars ( which always sold out first). Thus we were asking the general public to come ride a train pulled by this " antique" steam engine over tracks they could ride any day and in the same coaches they could ride any day for 4 times the price of a normal NJTransit ticket. Bottom line is that despite some great media coverage ( NBC Today show, multiple feature articles in the Bergen Record, Newark Star Ledger etc.) we exhausted the market.


Seems to me that the main lesson learned from our experience was that the serious steam fan base is shrinking rapidly ( even more so today vs. 1998) and to succeed every offering must be designed to appeal to the " daisy picker" segment not the railfans.

I think that this attempt by the 765 group has appeal to the daisy pickers and hopefully enough so that they'll be able to fill the seats and pay the bills. They too are fighting what we did on NJT in that one can ride that route any day for less money.

Let's hope that they'll find a good reception to this latest offering.

Ross Rowland

My museum runs an annual Fall Foliage Express, four round trips. It's hauled by Alco Centuries provided by our host railroad, and you ride in our New York Central "Empire State Express" cars built by Budd in 1941 (but since rebuilt into commuter configuration). Given how the majority of folks in our area have never ridden a train ever, and the fact that we only run once a year, this trip sells out quickly and remains a popular attraction. We haul about 300 per train, 1,200 total for the day. Here is a sample press release from last year's trip:



This is the web site we used to sell tickets from:

http://rochestertrainrides.com/event/oc ... e-express/

One thing to remember is that most people are looking at these web sites on their phones. Something I am considering is reducing the amount of copy so that you come across the "purchase" button much sooner. You have to tailor your message to each platform (facebook, web site, press release) and adjust the amount of text and the message accordingly.

-otto-

Mr. Rowland brings up a really good point. I grew up in suburban Westchester County, where I was spoiled with frequent commuter train service to New York City, and therefore, practically grew up riding trains to the point where a "train ride" doesn't hold much novelty for me anymore. I certainly enjoy train rides, don't get me wrong. But if the train ride experience is selling what's up front pulling, it might be a hard sell to prospective customers if you can't explain exactly how they will enjoy this special experience. Much respect to the 614 trips, but Mr. Rowland is right, if I'm sitting in the back in one of the Comet coaches, I can't tell whats pulling up front.

Ever see photos of the old steam excursions from the freewheeling 1960s and 1970s? Everyone's hanging out the windows of the coaches, leaning out the vestibules, and crowding the doors of the baggage car/concession car right behind the tender trying to soak up as much as they can.

To that point, my little museum is hosting a rented steam engine this summer, Viscose No. 6. Our normal train is made up of three restored cabooses. While that accommodation might be okay for most, to get he maximum effect we are building a special open-air rider flatcar for the occasion. Our train will consist of the flatcar and a transfer caboose with wide open porches. Riding the flatcar, you'll be able to enjoy all the sights and sounds of steam railroading, and I'm sure a few will crowd up to the front where they can watch the fireman and engineer work. Those riding the caboose will still get to see and experience plenty.

So what do you do if you're a rip-roarin' mainline steam excursion? Rider flatcars are out of the question. Finding cars with non-sealed windows is difficult (and most riders want air conditioning and modern toilets). Does adding dome cars help so at least you can see the steam engine working ahead? Do you add a baggage car up front so folks can get as close to the engine as they can?

Perhaps another way to look at it is if the passengers can't open windows or stand right behind the engine, perhaps you focus on the overall experience. Perhaps you are recreating a vintage travel experience and folks will have to settle for seeing the steam engine during whatever layover is planned? If that's the case, perhaps the onboard experience can be enhanced in some manner so that customers feel justified in the value they are getting for their tickets.

-otto-

Otto,

With all due respect your "MY little museum" quote is quite offensive to many of the volunteers that came before you at that specific museum.

Normally I would let this pass but you have on numerous occasions represented yourself as the "person" solely responsible for the existence of that museum.

For the record, many other members at that museum served as "trustees" over the years, and the generosity and efforts of those folks and others enable you to currently discuss "your museum".....

You are just a trustee, many others did that task before you with quite demonstrable results.

When you arrived as a trustee an operational railroad museum with a fleet of restored and operational locomotives with restored cabooses already existed, with tracks to operate them on, without interference from the FRA. That was not the case before those estimable folks enabled the museum that you are now temporarily a trustee of.

You should always keep that in mind....

Good luck with your future efforts.

Cheers, Kevin.

Kelly,

I can't resist commenting on your Joliet promotional materials because it so closely matches some of the things I've imagined doing for years. Although most of my insights have been anticipated by commenters above, here goes.

I love the idea of trying to merchandise actual railroad history as a hook for an event. (Notice I say "event," not "trip.") This is the one thing railway museums can sell that no one else can, but we have never made a good test of its drawing power. In this event, the layover is part of the show and not something to fill time while the engine is turned.

You are right that these materials are wordy. To buy the concept of this event, a reader has to navigate the "Rocket" name, and absorb the history of the Rock island and LaSalle Street. Save the history education for when you've got the audience on board and can entertain them with reading material.

At an early T.R.A.In. conference I heard a tourist-line promoter emphasize the importance of pictures of actual, happy passengers, so that a buyer forms the image of actually riding your train with the family. These images will do what words can't.

Right now PM 1225 is sustained by our Christmas trips. These are phenomenally successful, but have zero historical content. We will improve that as time goes by, but nonetheless we expose many thousands of people a year to a working 2-8-4 who otherwise would never see steam. We are making the experience available to people on a reliable schedule, which achieves much of our museum purpose Santa Claus notwithstanding. And this is in territory where the nearest big city is Flint, not New York.

Although it's true you can't tell what's pulling the train when you're aboard, the steam engine is crucial. We operated our Christmas trains behind Diesel while the 1225 got its new firebox, and it was a hard sell. When the steam engine came back, sales skyrocketed. Even though most people pay little attention to the engine as they line up to board the train, if it wasn't there, they wouldn't be either. We scratch our heads over this while we sell tickets.

As Ross points out, steam fans are a minuscule fraction of the ridership, but they're not gone yet. A few will be people who are interested but not knowledgeable, and who will become our next generation of volunteers. They're not all old, either. Steam fans from around the country are already making reservations for December's trips. The economic impact is noticeable, especially when there's only one hotel. And those families from New Zealand and Switzerland were fun, and very appreciative.

All of this is a function of web-based marketing, chiefly Facebook, which turned out to be the right medium to reach moms with kids needing entertainment. I don't understand it, but luckily I'm not in charge. It requires careful tending, but is amazingly cheap. It's astonishing to someone who remembers agonizing over whether to spend for newspaper or radio ads for one-day NRHS fantrips, and praying for free newspaper coverage BEFORE the event, instead of the day after.

So congratulations on introducing historical content into a steam event. Not trip: I think we've all been fixated on the 1970's notion of day-long Southern Rwy.-style excursions that are now extinct. If there is a use for these engines in the future it won't be on long trips.

If I hadn't promised the family to be elsewhere on June 18 (advance notice is important), I might have returned to Joliet for the first time since we posed the K-Car full of brake valves in front of the prison gate en route to pick up our ex-Dick Jensen Rock Island tank from the steel mill. That was about the time John Belushi kicked, so we can't have any appearance by Joliet Jake, which would indeed be a selling point for fans of a certain age . . .

"Good evening ladies and gentlemen and welcome to LaSalle Street Station. In the year 2 thousand and 26, the train trips known today as steam excursions will exist only on your local short line. So, tonight, while we still can, let's welcome, from Rock Island, Illinois, the steam trips of Nickel Plate 765."

Aarne Frobom
Palace Hotel Ballroom

Thanks, Aarne.

Indeed, our industry needs to pivot to inspiring hearts and minds and then filling them with history, nostalgia and appreciation for the past. I initially resisted putting too much history information on the page (but pushed it down and out of the way) and will focus on more details for people on the trip, but I felt like it was necessary for context.

Over the years, especially during The Varsity trip, I felt like we were trapping people aboard a train for 8 hours with no layover or destination. Not a lot of value in that -- maybe once upon a time on the Southern, but not today. I hope these experiences will be bold, bright and brief for passengers with 2 hours on the train and no more than 2 hours at the layover.

First rule of entertainment: always leave them wanting more.

High overhead costs are a major consideration. Back before the demise of the original NS Steam Program, TVRM had already determined that it was time to consider getting out of the program. We were looking at $80 per ticket just to cover expenses, which was pricing us out of the market for most of our intended audience.

We shifted instead from running two or three weekends a year to running several shorter trips over a local short line. That enabled us to run trips using only our own equipment. One thing that helps to market a trip is an activity at the turnaround point, especially if there will be a long layover. On the NS trips to Oneida, there was a crafts fair that the town planned to coincide with the weekends that the trains ran. On the Huntsville trips, passengers were given the opportunity to visit local attractions.

As for our local trips, we considered dinner trains but decided that it was more prudent to do meal service off the train. We offered two venues-the Lee and Gordon's Mill (circa 1838) and for Valentines and Christmas trips, the Gordon Lee Mansion (circa 1845). Using the mansion required prior arrangement with the local historical society so that no rooms would be booked for the days that the train operated. This permitted our guests to have the opportunity to tour the entire house after dinner. After the first year or so, those trips sold themselves-repeat business or business generated by word of mouth.

RE: commentary by Messrs. Lynch and Frobom--- YES, YES, and YES!!!

Howard P.
Right On, Conn.