ADM thank you for taking the time to type up the details, much appreciate knowing the full story.

Rob

Photo from 2008.

- Alan Maples

In ever so modest defense of the scenario in question, although the "fraud" (if it can be called that--and I'm only being a stickler for hearing all sides in a debate like this) in this case was (supposedly/allegedly) committed by one individual of less-than-modest means who probably should not have been given the time of day, there were two other faults to be had in the scenario as variously described:
*PP&L failed to do due diligence with regards to the veracity of either the society or the proposal made in its name (which may have had something to do with a rush to clear the loco off the site for a new power plant owner at the time); and
*The CRHS failed, for whatever reason, to maintain due diligence over activities supposedly done in its name (probably because the society was in disarray, etc.). Mind you, this was the mid-1990s before everybody and all their cousins had a website, MySpace page, Facebook page, Twitter account, Wikipedia entry, Yelp reviews, etc. Today, if I went to a power company with such a proposal on behalf of a museum or excursion line, they could likely verify my sanity or lack thereof, if they chose, in about two minutes, and the substance of my proposal in another three.

This kind of issue may come up more than we wish to know. I can drop the name "National Railway Historical Society," "Amtrak Historical Society," "PD&Q Railroad Historical Society," "Pennsyltucky Railroad Museum," etc., and if either my relationship with such an organization or the organization's ability to handle a proposal (or even the group's existence!) is negligible or non-existent, it's perhaps worse than not saying anything at all in the long term, as the ultimate outcome of this "preservation effort" may show. Further, there's always people apparently eager to mishear and misunderstand you, and hypothetically turn, say, a casual inquiry from a vice-president of one chapter of the NRHS into "the president of the National Railroad Society wants us to save it." (I hate to say that such a misunderstanding may have worked to my advantage at least once.....)
Further, rescue efforts and historical accounting is occasionally prone to hyperbole and exaggeration. We can be certain that somewhere some lowly member or chapter of the NRHS has exploited the "National" in the name to their advantage, and overwrought, exaggerated hyperbole about the "national significance" and "historical importance" of everything from a third-rate rural station to an ordinary caboose to, say, the steam locomotive that is the topic of this thread seemingly becomes mandatory in publicity releases, National Register nominations, and preservation grant applications. (Regrettably, "that's politics for ya....")

People who argue for a sense of "perspective" in the big picture of historical preservation often get castigated as "Debbie Downers," "nay-sayers," and "Nattering Nabobs of Negativity" (or worse by potty-mouthed types!), but not only does it recognize the reality of "we can't save 'em all" and conserve our limited resources, but it also helps the field of historical preservation appear rational, practical, sensible, well-grounded, and mature, which improves our relationships with the people whose assets and resources we are constantly asking to have donated or spent for our goals.

I've received confirmation of the scrapping from a "high holy source" who wants to stay out of the debacle. He confirms that 1) a noted Northeastern rail preservationist was actually called in by the property owner to arrange disposition of the loco, and 2) that the Westinghouse air pumps and various other bits of usable hardware were removed for reuse by the CNJ 113 guys in Minersville. The driving issue, apparently, was leaky asbestos scaring certain parties.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the frame and running gear of this loco ended up in a certain someone's back yard.......

FYI, here is an areal view of the locomotive. note the yellow rectangle at center partially obscured by the trees.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lewis ... d31f76a418

Does anyone have the status on the running gear? The Porter we're moving is missing it's eccentric gear and main rods connecting parts.

Herb Sakalaucks
Colfax railroad Museum

I am disappointed it has been scrapped, VERY disappointed.
Also glad to see parts went to a good place.
After seeing what is coming to light after this incident, I will think twice before putting any efforts forward.

Simply a quick post on this board would help alert everybody else to look into saving the engine regardless of any organization's situation.

I tend to think about all the equipment IRM scrapped to raise money, still a historical loss.
Have to move on.

With all due respect: No.

Fireless steamers are basically "a dime a dozen" in rail preservation, and an anomaly no matter how you look at it. They're like displaying Ford tractors in an antique auto museum; people look at it and say "oh, that's nice" and then move on to the Model A, the Dusie, the Edsel, and the '57 Chevy. The museums that have a good place for such a loco in the "big picture" already all seem to have one.

The only sensible place for this thing would have been a local rail or industrial museum showing off local railroad history, including cars and locomotives from local railroads and/or industries. THERE IS ONE OF THOSE SEVEN MILES OR LESS UP THE TRACK. The extraordinarily difficult part--getting it out of the plant and up to a short line interchange over a somewhat hostile Class One--was miraculously accomplished over a decade ago, and I'm STILL not sure how in hell that happened, as I was "out of town," and no one involved would/will admit the details!

No, the "bogeyman" of asbestos removal being an expensive, toxic-waste-mixed-with-saccharine-and-anthrax-and-nuclear-waste-and-ebola-and-cholesterol scenario scared off the board of that museum, in spite of my repeated efforts to present them with the reality of asbestos removal rather than the legends. An associate of mine from up that way suggested (I paraphrase), "If they figured that they could never muster up enough warm bodies to fix up a steam locomotive cosmetically, then they're facing the reality that they're an organization near death with no future."

And if anyone is now hell-bent on saddling themselves with a project of this scope for their museum or backyard and we can't exorcise those delusions of irrationality from your cranium, we repeat: There's an orphaned sister of this loco over in Hamburg, Pa. waiting for you to give it a good home, unless a certain someone has claimed ownership and just not moved it to his roundhouse yet.......

Forward to whom, where?

For every situation that ends up like this, there are success stories. For every Reading 2100 story, there's a NKP 765, a Milwaukee 261, an SP 4449, etc. For every beavertail observation awash in Lake Erie, there's one restored to operation. For every bastardized amusement park ride with Blomberg trucks under a 4-2-4, there's a Cagney and live-steamers group. For every Gettysburg, a Strasburg. For every "McRailroad Museum," a B&O Museum, CSRM, or RR Museum of Pa.

You always have to pick and choose your efforts. You want to save a caboose, but the guy who owns it wants $30,000 in spite of the fact that it'll fall to pieces if you just look at it funny? Turn around and walk away. It would be cheaper to build a new E8A from scratch than rewire and rebuild that heavily vandalized hulk that thinks it was an E8 in a past life? Find a worthier target. The rail museum keeps accumulating more hulks than they can handle and never fixing up any of them? Await the inevitable clearance sale, and grab the ones you like for another museum. And if the board turns down your donation because they don't like the color yellow or one board member thinks the company it came from is criminal in raising his electric bills, then move on or campaign to replace them.

Apropos of nothing much: prior to the scrapping there were 51 0-4-0Fs, 10 0-6-0Fs and 1 0-8-0F in the United States. So now we're down to 61 fireless locomotives in the U.S.

Mr. Mitchell, thank you for your efforts in trying to talk the local club into it; I think it would have been a good fit with their other 2 engines.
Efforts? Just will be kept to my equipment, equipment belonging to some trusted friends, one museum, and one club. In that order.

Per ADM4's post: there is one more of these in danger. I'm not in a position to take on another project at this time. Is there anyone who is willing to say 'I will' as opposed to saying 'someone should'?

Regards,

Art S.

I am a huge fan of these PP&L fireless cookers. I recently moved back to SEPA, so I had to go see if the Hamburg locomotive still exists. Much to my excitement it does! Unfortunately the old beast is in sad shape. Does anyone know who owns it now, RBMN? I'd like to get in touch with them. Did anything from the Lewisburg locomotive, PP&L #1, survive?




(Images are clickable for a larger version)

The thread stated that various parts that were reusable from the scrapped loco were scavenged/salvaged for the Minersville, Pa. CNJ 113 project, particularly the Westinghouse air compressors.

The one in Hamburg was supposedly/allegedly rescued by Dave Shirey not long before his passing. In theory, it's part of his estate "collection" still being maintained by his parents in memoriam, but to be honest this may well be one of these weird situations too common in this field where "possession is 9/10th of the law," and/or nobody really knows WHO "owns" the loco. We don't have Department of Railway Vehicles titles, after all. The yard SHOULD be Blue Mt. & Reading/Reading & Northern property, maybe sub-leased to RCT&HS or something, or a certain railroad owner's "back lot" or whatever.

Step up with a $50,000 check, and a trailer and cranes, and you might well see several parties trying to claim "rightful" ownership......... or I could be wrong, and the same party has diligently paid track space rent or had it donated to them, OR you might even be able to take it free for all I know. (Of course, you actually have to HAVE $50K first.)