Tonopah & Tidewater and the Borax Roads - Anything Left?

Nictrain123 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 pm **Posts:** 15

Randy Hees wrote:

The Davenport 0-4-0t (c/n 1498) was never used on the Borate and Daggett railroad. That railroad was abandoned in Oct 1907, some years before the locomotive was built in March, 1916.

The Davenport was purchased new by Sterling Borax, a Pacific Coast Borax competitor for their line up Tick Canyon in Los Angeles County... Yes, Sterling received the used porter (c/n 937, the Emil Porter, No 1 built for the Oro Grande Mining Company) The railroad between Daggett and Calico was variously known as the Oro Grande Mining railroad, the Waterloo Mining Co railroad, the Calico railroad or the Calico & Daggett... This is a single railroad with at least 4 names. Its other porter, No 2 Sanger c/n 962 an 0-6-0t was sold to the Mohave and Milltown, c.1903

The Porter (c/n 937) was first leased, then sold (in 1901) to American Borax for their railroad out of Daggett... that railroad shared one mile of track with the Calico railroad. American Borax was an investor in Sterling Borax, and it appears that the locomotive is transferred to Tick canyon in 1908... It is said to have been number 1 in Tick canyon, but a photo which maybe this engine shows it as number 2 (this could be a third unknown engine) Sterling also had a small unknown internal combustion locomotive of unknown manufacture.

Pacific Coast Borax shuts down the Tick Canyon operation in the early 1920's and the Davenport was sent to Death Valley Jct where it ended up as a stationary boiler for the hotel laundry... there are photos of the saddle tank being scrapped at Ludlow. It is assumed, but not known for certain that the other locomotives and cars from the Tick canyon were scrapped. Someone earlier suggested that there would be a record of scrapping... I suspect not... these were mostly industrial railroads, and the railroad equipment would likely have been included in a bulk contract to scrap the facility.

There is one mystery surrounding the Pacific Coast Borax narrow gauge operations... in Jan 1899, Pacific Coast Borax buys 15, 4 wheel dump cars from Carson & Colorado. These had been built by/for the Virginia & Truckee in 1870-1874 (as standard gauge cars) rebuilt by the V&T as narrow gauge car and sold to the Carson & Colorado railroad in 1882, mostly used on the Candelaria branch, then are sold to PCB in 1899... They don't appear in known equipment lists or photos of the B&D (as would be expected at that date... ) They do not appear on lists of equipment transferred to the DVRR... Of course by 1899 they were near 30 years old and likely pretty beat up...

The T&T hopper thing was from memory... sorry...

Randy

Really? From some records I've uncovered, they stated that the engine was temporarily used at the B&D for deconstruction of the 3ft/4ft 8.5in. section inbetween Daggett and Marion for deconstruction of the section there and the roaster mill at Marion about 1912 or 1913. The line was indeed abandoned in 1906/1907 I know, but a section was indeed left at Daggett to store the B&D engines as they had no shed or roundhouse to be kept in. But that's interesting though.

And it's interesting to know a bit about 'Emil' after she was moved to Tick. You say you found a photo of her as #1 there with another locomotive? And as for 'Sanger', I've heard records that she (along with 'Emil') were used in the construction of the Borate & Daggett Railroad in early 1899, because by that time the Daggett & Calico Railroad declined so much in traffic, that PCB decided to give them a bit of work to do for a while. They were stated to have been used for about a couple of months or so on the B&D before the arrival of 'Marion', and they were sent back to Calico to be stored in an old railroad shed (which is now Fout's Garage in Daggett, once next to Waterloo Mill at the southern terminus of the line before the Daggett extension) until American Borax bought the line in 1903, extended the line to Daggett to reach the calcining plants there and sold 'Sanger' to the Mohave & Milltown Railroad.

Legend has it that there was an engine from the ol' M&M left behind after the line was abandoned and washed out, so consequently it was left stranded there. It was located on an old section of line that went near Route 66 so people hiking along there could see it. I know there were three engines that worked the line, one was the 0-6-0 Porter engine, the other was also an 0-6-0 Porter but it was slightly bigger than the Calico engine. Not sure about what the third engine was though, not sure which one of these engines was the one left behind either.

Maybe I was hoping if you could shed some light on the subject?

And as for the V&T/C&C freight stock on the B&D, that I never knew before. Perhaps it was used for construction or spare parts or something?

David Johnston · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:14 am

Could someone discuss the engine house that is currently at Daggett? I have read the plaque on the side of it, but found it hard to follow. The group that put the plaque on the building has been known to stretch the truth a little for a good story.

Randy Hees · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:32 am

Dave,

As best I can tell the garage in Daggett was originally located in Marion (the site of the Pacific Borax mill associated with the Borate and Daggett railroad and was moved to town after 1907 when the mill at Marion was dismantled. I believe that it was not associated with the Calico and Daggett railroad. Yes, there is a ton of misinformation associated with the building and its history.

On other issues...

The Pacific Coast Borax Davenport 0-4-0 was NEVER used on the Borate and Daggett... it was built 8 or more years after the railroad was dismantled. It is possible the two Calico Railroad porters were used to build the Borate & Daggett, but we just don't have any evidence to prove it... a small locomotive called "peawee" is said to have been used as a construction engine...

On to the Mohave & Milltown... they had at least 4 locomotives. The common story it that the railroad was washed out in less than a year and was done... in fact it ran for about 3 years... One was said to have been left along Rt 66, but strangely no photos have surfaced of this tourist landmark. Recently photos were located of the Santa Fe placing a narrow gauge locomotive into the Colorado river as riprap... that locomotive was known to have been in Needles, which could be the same locomotive, or not... some of the stories of the Rt 66 locomotive specify it was some miles away in Oatman... (by the way, in California it is the Mojave Desert... in Arizona it is Mohave...)

The problem with these desert railroads is they were mostly non-common carriers, so not subject to reporting requirements... Most were associated with mining so you end up following mining history and investors to try to tie things together... An even bigger problem is the stories... the desert is a place that generates stories, facts are not required for a good desert story... and stories get repeated and retold until they take on a mantle of what looks like facts... but the stories true or not are what draw many of us... And to make it more complicated, Pacific Coast Borax created much of the story of the 20 mule team as a marketing program, which became a radio show, which became a TV series... all adding layers of dubious information... all in the name of selling laundry powder...

Randy

Mr.Starr · **Joined:** Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:41 am **Posts:** 97

What about DVRR No. 2, anyone know where she is today?

Mr. Starr

diningcartim · **Joined:** Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:34 pm **Posts:** 186

I have been fascinated by the T&T, especially after reading Rodgers E.M. ("Frimbo") Whittaker's account of riding their mixed train after flying over from Ely on the Nevada Northern.

Aside from equipment, can someone give a quick summary of what remains of the various right of ways? As a kid my family drove from Las Vegas to Reno and I can swear I remember seeing track somewhere along the way, very obviously unused but still in place, seemingly stretching on for miles.

wesp · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:35 am

Quote:

What about DVRR No. 2, anyone know where she is today?

Further details here:

http://www.letsgoseeit.com/index/county/inyo/death_valley/loc03/museum.htm

Wesley

Nictrain123 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 pm **Posts:** 15

Randy Hees wrote:

As best I can tell the garage in Daggett was originally located in Marion (the site of the Pacific Borax mill associated with the Borate and Daggett railroad and was moved to town after 1907 when the mill at Marion was dismantled. I believe that it was not associated with the Calico and Daggett railroad. Yes, there is a ton of misinformation associated with the building and its history.

David Johnston wrote:

Could someone discuss the engine house that is currently at Daggett? I have read the plaque on the side of it, but found it hard to follow. The group that put the plaque on the building has been known to stretch the truth a little for a good story.

I actually know quite a bit of history regarding the garage myself. Yes, while it is true that the building started out in Marion, but the plaque in front of it states it started out in 1888 as a roundhouse for the Borate & Daggett. This information I found out from the owner of the garage, Alan Golden, I know him very well. He says the true story behind the garage that it started out at Marion in 1890 or '91 and as soon as the B&D started construction in 1897, the building was bought by the Waterloo Mining Company and the building was moved to an undisclosed location near their mill at Elephant Mountain at the current southern terminus of their little narrow gauge railway, to serve as a maintenence and storage facility for their two little engines 'Emil' and 'Sanger'.

Sometime after the line was closed down in 1907, the building was left behind at Elephant Mountain, but Walter Alf (son of local Daggett blacksmith Seymour Alf, builder and operator of the famous 20 Mule Team wagons) moved the building to Daggett in about 1912, and moved the whole building to it's present location intact and hitched on top of four wagons!

The building was formerly used (to my knowledge, and NOT in order), as an auto garage, livery stable, a dirt-floored grocery store and even a military outpost to house troops during World War II who were assigned to protect the railroads in the area.

Randy Hees wrote:

It is possible the two Calico Railroad porters were used to build the Borate & Daggett, but we just don't have any evidence to prove it... a small locomotive called "peawee" is said to have been used as a construction engine...

I actually do have evidence. I've managed to find an old picture at Calico Ghost Town (I work there as a museum curator) of 'Sanger' working on constructing the B&D tracks up the grade in Mule Canyon towards Borate about 1897.

I also found out that PCB nicknamed 'Emil' 'Peewee' whilst she was working on the B&D, the two engines were used temporarily on the line for about one or two years before the arrival of 'Marion' in 1899, and the two were sent back to the Waterloo Mining Company and put into storage until further notice. I've questioned local historians and library books concerning this information, and they've confirmed that this is correct.

Randy Hees wrote:

On to the Mohave & Milltown... they had at least 4 locomotives. The common story it that the railroad was washed out in less than a year and was done... in fact it ran for about 3 years... One was said to have been left along Rt 66, but strangely no photos have surfaced of this tourist landmark. Recently photos were located of the Santa Fe placing a narrow gauge locomotive into the Colorado river as riprap... that locomotive was known to have been in Needles, which could be the same locomotive, or not... some of the stories of the Rt 66 locomotive specify it was some miles away in Oatman... (by the way, in California it is the Mojave Desert... in Arizona it is Mohave...)

The problem with these desert railroads is they were mostly non-common carriers, so not subject to reporting requirements... Most were associated with mining so you end up following mining history and investors to try to tie things together... An even bigger problem is the stories... the desert is a place that generates stories, facts are not required for a good desert story... and stories get repeated and retold until they take on a mantle of what looks like facts... but the stories true or not are what draw many of us... And to make it more complicated, Pacific Coast Borax created much of the story of the 20 mule team as a marketing program, which became a radio show, which became a TV series... all adding layers of dubious information... all in the name of selling laundry powder...

Randy

That's strange.

But, why did they throw it into the river? That's just dumb. It was a historical landmark for crying out loud!

If that engine was the Calico engine.........ugh..........

Mr.Starr wrote:

What about DVRR No. 2, anyone know where she is today?

DVRR #2 was relocated to the Borax Museum at Furness Creek Wash in Death Valley in lae 1955 after it served a long good career on the United States Potash Railroad in Carlsbad, NM. It's in terrible condition as of now thanks to the dry and hard desert winds, and to think that they just cleaned her and polished her up just before they moved her out there too...

Randy Hees · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:09 pm

Death Valley RR No 2 can be found in the museum in the Furnace Creek Ranch... they also have a "Baby Gauge" locomotive, along with wagons and such... out front they have one of the 20 mule team wagon sets and a Best steam tractor.

We have photos of the locomotive along with the Baldwin Sprecification sheets on Pacificng.com at http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.php?g2_itemId=1338

We have a draft history of the Death Valley RR, the Borate & Daggett, and the two other Daggett railroads writen for our history section... we are just editing...

Mohave & Milltown should follow in June... I need a research trip to the area to tie up a few loose ends...

Randy

Randy Hees · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:18 pm

I love the photo of the Sanger in use on the B&D... that does confirm that Peewee was from the Calico Railroad...

The timeline on the garage/engine house doesn't make sense... by the time PCB was building the Borate & Daggett, the Calico Railroad was pretty much done (hence the engines being available), and the B&D needed an engine house until they shutdown is 1908, by which time the Calico railroad was abandoned and the equipment sold... This is how desert stories break down.

The Mohave & Milltown engine that went into the Colorado River was Dickson 2-6-0, c/n 496? 1884, 13x18 45” Built for Chateaugray Ore & Iron. This locomotive was photographed in Needles, (assumed to be associated with Mohave & Milltown due to proximity) Photos (photo from AT&SF Modeler Association) show it numbered 2. It was later photographed being placed in Colorado River as rip-rap by AT&SF. Locomotive was sold to the Tonopah RR according to records from Chateaugray RR, (no 9) for $1,350.00, 10/29/1903. There is no evidence that the locomotive was ever delivered to TRR. (The TRR and M&M shared a common ownership)

As an old piece of heavy junk it was placed in the river bed to prevent erosion... At the time no one cared about its history... We only know about it because of a couple of snap shots taken by a Santa Fe employee... This is how most industrial engines die... without record.

Randy

Nictrain123 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 pm **Posts:** 15

Randy Hees wrote:

Death Valley RR No 2 can be found in the museum in the Furnace Creek Ranch... they also have a "Baby Gauge" locomotive, along with wagons and such... out front they have one of the 20 mule team wagon sets and a Best steam tractor.

I remember. I went up to Death Valley when I was very little. I barely remember any of it, but I do remember seeing DVRR No. 2 there, along with a little motorcart there (the "Baby Gauge" vehicle) and of course "Old Dinah," the tractor they used on the borax runs between Borate and Daggett in 1894 before the railroad came in.

Randy Hees wrote:

We have photos of the locomotive along with the Baldwin Sprecification sheets on Pacificng.com at http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.php?g2_itemId=1338

We have a draft history of the Death Valley RR, the Borate & Daggett, and the two other Daggett railroads written for our history section... we are just editing...

Mohave & Milltown should follow in June... I need a research trip to the area to tie up a few loose ends...

That's cool. I know quite a lot about the history of the Borate & Daggett, Daggett & Calico and the Death Valley railroads myself. I was the one who heavily edited the B&D and WMR (Waterloo Mining Railroad/Daggett & Calico Railroad) pages on Wikipedia, check 'em out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borate_an ... t_Railroad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_Mining_Railroad

Give me a call sometime and I can help contribute a little to your pages if you like. ;)

Randy Hees wrote:

I love the photo of the Sanger in use on the B&D... that does confirm that Peewee was from the Calico Railroad...

I have a few more if your interested. I have direct contact with good and well-reseached historical books and the local museums.

Randy Hees wrote:

The timeline on the garage/engine house doesn't make sense... by the time PCB was building the Borate & Daggett, the Calico Railroad was pretty much done (hence the engines being available), and the B&D needed an engine house until they shutdown is 1908, by which time the Calico railroad was abandoned and the equipment sold...

Yeah, my friend Brian told me that the people who did the plaques around here didn't follow up on historical research well, and some of them were struggling to stay sober from what I've heard. The B&D, from what I've researched, never had an engine house.

When the line was abandoned in 1907, the engines were just left at the 3-rail siding in Daggett right out on the open along with 4 gondolas and 3 flats. They were left that way for about 6 years in the desert air, till Wash Cahill and J.W. Stalker (the local mechanic at the time) came to consider moving them out to the DVRR.

The shop from Elephant Mountain wasn't moved till after the engines were moved away, the repairs on them were probably done at the Tonopah & Tidewater Railroad's engine shops at Ludlow prior to the DVRR move.

Randy Hees wrote:

The Mohave & Milltown engine that went into the Colorado River was Dickson 2-6-0, c/n 496? 1884, 13x18 45” Built for Chateaugray Ore & Iron. This locomotive was photographed in Needles, (assumed to be associated with Mohave & Milltown due to proximity) Photos (photo from AT&SF Modeler Association) show it numbered 2. It was later photographed being placed in Colorado River as rip-rap by AT&SF. Locomotive was sold to the Tonopah RR according to records from Chateaugray RR, (no 9) for $1,350.00, 10/29/1903. There is no evidence that the locomotive was ever delivered to TRR. (The TRR and M&M shared a common ownership)

As an old piece of heavy junk it was placed in the river bed to prevent erosion... At the time no one cared about its history... We only know about it because of a couple of snap shots taken by a Santa Fe employee... This is how most industrial engines die... without record.

So it wasn't the Calico engine? Whew, that's a relief. Perhaps this was the third/fourth engine that worked on the M&M?

SZuiderveen · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:20 pm

If and when (after the present Administration is gone?) the Yucca Mountain Railroad is built, is part of the southern end of it going to be on T&T r-o-w, or is it "somewhere" nearby? My best understanding is that the extension of the branch from Hawthorne was turned down in favor of a line circling all the way around the missle range from Caliente.

Steve

Nictrain123 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 pm **Posts:** 15

SZuiderveen wrote:

If and when (after the present Administration is gone?) the Yucca Mountain Railroad is built, is part of the southern end of it going to be on T&T r-o-w, or is it "somewhere" nearby? My best understanding is that the extension of the branch from Hawthorne was turned down in favor of a line circling all the way around the missle range from Caliente.

TL

The southern-most terminus of the T&T is at Ludlow, CA. They still have a bit of the old yard there, even though they're not using it anymore. After some washouts to the trackbed near Ludlow in 1932, PCB moved the southern terminus to Crucero and moved some of the buildings at Ludlow to Death Valley Junction.

But I've never heard about this before. Where did you hear about this? Are they planning on rebuilding the section of the T&T around Ludlow or closer to Crucero?

SZuiderveen · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:41 pm

Nictrain123 wrote:

But I've never heard about this before. Where did you hear about this? Are they planning on rebuilding the section of the T&T around Ludlow or closer to Crucero?

Warning, large download

http://energy.gov/nepa/downloads/eis-02 ... -statement

Steve

Brian Norden · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:26 pm

The Mohave and Milltown had a saddle tank locomotive that shows up in the photo in Myrick's RRs of Nevada and Eastern Calif. This appears to be of contemporary saddle-tank design for the start up of the line. A few years ago I stopped by the local history museum in Kingman, Arizona, and looked at photos it had of the Mohave and Milltown; all of these showed this locomotive and not anything older.

A disappointment for me. I was hoping to find a photo of the locomotive that the Los Angeles and Redondo sold to them. The accounting journals from the LA&R are part of the SP records collection at Stanford University Special Collections. LA&R listed that it sold ten track switches, a combine and locomotive #24 to the M&M. The combine in the photo in Myrick matches one photographed on the LA&R.

Nictrain123 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 pm **Posts:** 15

Brian Norden wrote:

The Mohave and Milltown had a saddle tank locomotive that shows up in the photo in Myrick's RRs of Nevada and Eastern Calif. This appears to be of contemporary saddle-tank design for the start up of the line. A few years ago I stopped by the local history museum in Kingman, Arizona, and looked at photos it had of the Mohave and Milltown; all of these showed this locomotive and not anything older.

A disappointment for me. I was hoping to find a photo of the locomotive that the Los Angeles and Redondo sold to them. The accounting journals from the LA&R are part of the SP records collection at Stanford University Special Collections. LA&R listed that it sold ten track switches, a combine and locomotive #24 to the M&M. The combine in the photo in Myrick matches one photographed on the LA&R.

I have that book as well. But are you sure you didn't see an engine similar to this one?

This engine was called 'Sanger', it was built by H.K. Porter in 1888 with the build number of 962. It worked close to my hometown of Daggett, California and ran the line till about 1903 when the line was bought up by American Borax Co. after the silver mines at Calico ran out. It was said to have been sold to the Mohave & Milltown Railroad after that, and I can't seem to find a record of what happened to it after that.

Tonopah & Tidewater and the Borax Roads - Anything Left?

Who is online