Is this a combination; Wheel lathe / quartering machine that has the quartering attachments that work through the cutouts in the faceplates? shown at the; Norris Steam Restoration Shop, Norris Yards, East of Ruffner Road, Irondale, Jefferson County, AL. http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/al1015.photos.046280p/ It says on the photo info that its a Niles, but I am not so sure about that.


Here is a shot of the wheel lathe at Cass, which I thought was a Niles, it also has the crank pin cut-outs in the faceplates; http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 3227634444

http://www.wade8a.com/pmimages/nbp01.jpg

The HAER photograph shows the 90" Niles wheel lathe at the NS Steam Shop. we also had a Niles quartering machine. Both of these machine tools went to the Grand Canyon Railway when the shop closed.

Robert Yuill

http://www.historicmachineryservices.com

So the HAER photo has the wrong info attached to it? It also says its a quartering machine, so they missed on 100% of that data.

What can you tell me about the crank pin cutout in the faceplate? I'm wondering if that feature can be used to date the year made on those old machines.

Was there some kind of RR industry machine tool catalog that could be used now to identify the wheel lathes, quartering machines etc..? I have the 1927,1930,1941 Loco & Car Cyclopedias, but they are mostly the same pages in each issue.

The machine in the Steam Shop picture is a Niles Symbol AW90 Heavy Wheel Lathe and is very similar to the current machine at TVRM. One is a Lot 311 machine and the other is a Lot 312 if my memory serves me correctly. Both were built in the 1944 - 1945 time frame. Neither machine has quartering attachments.

The Cass Machine is a much older machine dating back to early 1900's. I believe it is similar in age to the Strasburg Railroad machine. As you note, both have the crankpin pockets in the face plate. The pockets are necessary due to the length of the main crank pins. This allows the projection of the dead center to kept as small as possible when holding the main driving wheels.

I find the total inaccuracy of the Library of Congress information to be disturbing. Even it was a picture of the Quartering Machine, the construction date is wrong. TVRM's machine (Niles Symbol QB90) was built in 1948 and only two more were built after it. Both of those machines went to the NdeM. Speaking of which, I am not aware of anyone going south of the border to look for them either. I would say the machine that was in the Steam Shop was also a WWII vintage machine.

For an example of a wheel lathe with both quartering and journal turning capability, go to Steamtown. Their machine is Niles Symbol AA86 (this is the same machine pictured in the 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia) and was the only one built. The wheel lathe owned by the Mid-Continent Railway Museum also has these features.

We are fortunate that a few of these machines survived the Great Steam Purge of the late 1950's. Today they offer a measure of revenge against the diesel invader.

It looks to me like the archivists who compiled the documentation on the 1993 photo visit to Irondale for the HABS/HAER simply mixed up the lathe and the quartering machine. If you go through enough HAER/HABS files for long enough on a subject of your expertise, you'll certainly uncover minor errors here and there--like a steam boiler or fermentation vessel in a brewery being called a brew kettle, or vice versa.

Normally I wouldn't worry too much. But with the internet easing access to these files (I can now sit at home and download on my hard drives what I used to have to go to the LOC Madison Building in D.C. and download onto 100MB Iomega Zip discs!), there are a wealth of websites, blogs, Facebook pages, and eBay sellers redistributing images from the LOC (no copyright, after all) and whatever misinformation they may get in the process.

I note what look like superheater elements for 1218 in the background of this photo of a "TEN INCH WHEEL LATHE, MADE BY NILE TOOL WORKS CO., HAMILTON, OHIO, 1949": http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/hh ... s.046279p/

There are a few locomotive driver wheel lathes around that were equipped with a quartering attachments either single end or double end. These attachments were only crankpin hole boring machines and would not turn a mounted crankpin. I have studied some of these machines both Niles and Putman. Some machines are equipped with some type of indexing arrangement for accurate rotary placement of the wheel set but some machines that had single quartering attachments had no arrangement for locating the crankpin. The wheel lathes that I have study that had quartering attachments were also equipped with Journal turning speeds so these machine had sufficient RPM to turn journals and face the wheel hubs. On some of these machine a separate carriage tool post slide was installed to preform this function. Putman made a combination journal lathe quartering machine that could do both these functions, separate heads were installed to do the crankpin turning and hole boring.I do not believe any of these machine exist, I know of three Niles Quartering machines and one Craven British style quartering machine in the US.
While In Mexico back in the 70s at a meet I was informed my a NDM mechanical officer that he knew of a Quartering Machine that existed that was at San Luis Potosi Shop. I would be interested if anyone knows if it still exist.

Dennis Daugherty

On this Niles at Steamtown, have the typical twin tool posts been replaced with a single post that has more lateral travel, and would be more suited to turning the inside bearings, as shown in the photo? ;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/unit2345/6 ... /lightbox/

Is that the typical way to adapt the machine, to best turn inside bearings?

Steamtown's wheel lathe journal turning carriage was equipped with 2 tool post slides .Last time I was there one was removed as shown in the picture. I would guess more lateral travel was required. That carriage also is equipped with electric power feed. Someone at steamtown might comment if the power feed works on both lateral and cross travel. That wheel lathe is the only one left that I know about that has its journal turning carriage.I have pictures of Putman journal turning carriages both double inside journal and single outboard journal they appear to be manual feed.I believe the wheel lathe at the Ford Museum Roundhouse uses it tire turning carriages also for journal turning. Anyone that has wheel lathe sales fliers I would be interested in trading copies with ones in my collection.

How fast does the lathe turn when turning journals?

Wheel Lathe speeds for tire turning were usually from 3/8 RPM to about 2 RPM depending on size of machine ie 69" 79" 90" bigger machines ran slower . High speeds for journal turning were 4.4 RPM to 19 RPM.Most turning was accomplished at about 20-25 Surface Feet Per Minute with very heavy feeds by today's machining standards used broad nose turning tools.
Locomotive Driver Journal lathes had RPM up to 36 RPM but they had balancing weights in there headstock faceplates, feeds were 1/32" to 1/8" per revolution.I do not think very good finishes were obtained, one of the reasons for rolling journals. There is a Railway Mechanical Engineer article describing a Niles Driver axle journal lathe equipped with grind heads instead of the double roller system that was standard. Article describes the advantages of grinding journals instead of rolling. There also is other articles on grinding journals instead of rolling both methods had the advantages and disadvantages.I would think the best method would be turn, grind and then roll.
While I was at CSRM we had a Monarch Missile Master 80" lathe with a tracer that we turned tires also turned and ground journals. We obtained journals tolerances when grinding of .001 TIR concentric and about .001 to .002 taper over the journal length. We added weights to the faceplate or crankpins to help balance the wheel set. Biggest wheel set journal machined was from SP 2472

What is this make/model would you guys suspect this might be (at the Western Railway Museum, Rio Vista, Calif.).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40361283@N ... otostream/

No idea, but I want to see the horse that fits that shoe leaning against it!

:-)

Steve Hunter

Is a lathe that is stored outside, like that one at Rio Vista, still viable for use? I would think the rust and decay would ruin the lathe.

Steve wrote;

"Is a lathe that is stored outside, like that one at Rio Vista, still viable for use? I would think the rust and decay would ruin the lathe."

Well it turns out that the majority of the parts for a large tool like that are; cast iron, brass (or bronze), and high carbon steel. These with just a little paint and oil/grease will hold up to moderate weather OK. Yeah you can't drop it in a running river, and it helps to squirt some oil into the bearings once in a while. But you can store it outside for quite a while if necessary.

We salvaged an old (1890's) vintage lathe a while back. We took the "running parts" (spindle, headstock, carriage, etc. ) inside and left the large parts (ways, legs, etc.) outside for a few years. We put lots of sticky grease on the finished surfaces.

When we where able to bring it inside and clean up the parts and reassemble it we could turn journals to within 0.001" (with some patience). It could use a coat of paint and the old 1/2 -12 fasteners are hard to find (the "modern" 1/2-13 thread replaced the old 1/2-12 thread about 80 years ago).

Of course, I would never leave a modern lathe with all the electronics (readouts, speed control, etc.) outside ever.

Cheers, Kevin.

That "horseshoe" is actually a yoke which was part of the structure of the underground cable slot for a San Francisco cable car.