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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:56 am 
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I finally found some decent photos of CofG observation #692 "Ft. Benning" from when it was located in Yakima, WA.

1. http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8107/8517245527_b0a0f08c2f_o.jpg (Peter Lewis photo) (click once to enlarge)

2. http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8519/8517247831_26d78366c3_o.jpg (Peter Lewis photo) (click once to enlarge)

3. http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8096/8518357296_e8ed10bd2d_o.jpg (Peter Lewis photo) (click once to enlarge)

4. http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8518358370_b5b03503ea_o.jpg (Peter Lewis photo) (click once to enlarge)

The car next to it is ex-ACL baggage dormitory #106, which was given the name "Ft. Monmouth" when both cars were owned by Melco Labs.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:23 pm 
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Rainier Rails wrote:
SOU #816 to Amtrak #5278 to Alaska RR #5200 to Denver Railcar #5200. Current whereabouts?

SOU #820 to Amtrak #5281 to Alaska RR #5203 to Denver Railcar #5203. Amtrak registration #800416. Current whereabouts?

SOU #821 to Amtrak #5282 to Alaska RR #5204 to Denver Railcar #5204 "Spruce". Amtrak registration #800418. Current whereabouts?


Hayneshopcat wrote:
816 was Alaska/DRC 5200 Silver Aspen. This car might be the one that we think also went to Grand Canyon Railway. I was under the impression that they bought two and have put one in operation but I'm about to contradict that below. There was some rumor that they scrapped this one but I have never been able to verify that.

820 was Alaska/DRC 5203 Silver Pecan. Not sure of its whereabouts. This car was rebuilt for operation on the Acadian.

821 was Alaska/DRC 5204 Silver Spruce. Also not sure of its whereabouts. Also rebuilt for the Acadian.

822 was Alaska/DRC 5205 Silver Walnut. Rebuilt for the Acadian. This is the car that is at Grand Canyon Railway and in operation.

The notes show that the three cars rebuilt for the Acadian (820, 821, 822) and the 816 all went to the same bidder in the auction. So if that information is correct then there should be a total of four cars at Grand Canyon since we know that is where the 822/5205 went. So somebody close to the Grand Canyon railway might be able to chime in. I was under the impression that they bought one car for parts and logically that would be the 816.


An update on these four coaches:

As posted by Eric Hadder over in the DRCX Roster thread (http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36191), Grand Canyon did indeed purchase all four of these cars at the May 2004 auction:

hadder wrote:
Silver Aspen is on GCR Property in Williams, listed as 'Not Rebuildable'. (Incidentally, on my old records I show the 7033 as 'Not Rebuildable', but IRM thinks otherwise!)

Silver Pecan and Silver Spruce are stored on property, listed as 'Rebuildable', for when buisness ever increases to create the need.

Eric


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:53 pm 

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Did Southern ever use any of the rounded end or "boat tail" observation cars, and do any remain?


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:56 pm 

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The only boat tail observation cars that I recall the Southern owning were the ones that ran on the New Royal Palm. The Crescent had similar observation cars but they were owned by the L&N.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:28 pm 
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southern154 wrote:
Did Southern ever use any of the rounded end or "boat tail" observation cars, and do any remain?


There were a total of fourteen observation cars built for SOU trains, with ownership split between SOU, CNO&TP, A&WP, L&N, FEC, and NYC.

Six prewar cars were built by P-S in 1941 in Lot #6646 with 55 seats in the club lounge, with three built to Plan #7459 and three built to Plan #7460.

SOU #1100-#1102 (Plan #7459) were assigned to the Southerner, and all carried the name Louisiana. The reason for this is each of the train sets for the Southerner had cars named for the states the train passed through, and each train set had cars named for the same states, hence the duplication.

SOU #1150-#1152 (Plan #7460) were assigned to the Tennessean, which had cars named after towns and cities the train passed through:

#1150 Washington
#1151 Knoxville
#1152 Memphis

All six of the above prewar cars were scrapped in 1957. These cars, along with the other prewar cars built by P-S for SOU, had the design flaw of stainless steel fluting over corten steel side sheets. This was the leading factor for the unique design feature of postwar P-S cars that SOU ordered: the postwar cars were constructed with stainless fluting over stainless side sheets. This has led to a high survival rate of postwar SOU equipment.

The eight postwar observation cars are an example of this unique design specification:

These cars (built to Plan #4162 with 5DB and 22 seats in the buffet lounge) were part of the large order of sleepers built in 1950 by P-S in Lot #6814.

SOU owned two cars: #2300 Royal Arch (assigned to the Crescent) and #2301 Royal Court (assigned to the New Royal Palm). Both cars were rebuilt in 1958 to 11DB sleepers and assigned to the Crescent. #2300 (which had been renamed from Royal Arch to Luther Calvin Norris in 1950) was wrecked in Alabama in 1974 and subsequently scrapped. #2301 Royal Court was sold to Don Primi (#800348) and is currently stored on the Morristown & Erie.

CNO&TP owned #3499 Royal Palm, which was also assigned to the New Royal Palm. This car was also rebuilt to a 11DB sleeper in 1958 and assigned to the Crescent. It was also sold to Don Primi (#800347) and was later acquired by Royal Rail-Gold Coast Limited. It has been listed for sale recently on the Sterling website.

A&WP owned Royal Palace, which was assigned to the Crescent. Renamed Charles A. Wickersham in 1952, this car was sold in 1958 to Joseph B. Lanier, and was also acquired by Royal Rail-Gold Coast Limited. It is also currently in storage on the M&E.

FEC owned Azalea, which was assigned to the New Royal Palm. Unlike most of its passenger cars which were sold in 1965, the FEC retained the Azalea, which is still in active company use.

NYC owned Royal Crest, which was also assigned to the New Royal Palm. The Royal Crest was wrecked on the UP on 11/12/1951 and subsequently scrapped.

L&N owned #3300 Royal Canal and #3301 Royal Street, both of which were assigned to the Crescent. The #3300 was sold to a private owner in Mobile, and was later stored by Preston W. Duffy Company in Columbus, OH, where it was burned by vandals. The Orrville RR Heritage Society/Ohio Railway Supply later acquired the car for parts and subsequently scrapped it. The #3301 has had a much better fate: it was sold to a private owner in 1970 (#800386) and was stored for several years before being acquired by Dr. Jim Giganti, who restored the car to its original splendor. The #3301 Royal Street is in regular charter use with Amtrak registration #800726.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:07 pm 
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Update:

SOU 10RM-6DB sleeper #2008 Pacolet River to Amtrak #2853 (1979) sold 1982 to Al Nippert-Gator Rail sold 1985 to New Georgia sold at auction to Ken Olsten and located at the Tennessee Central Railway Musuem in Nashville

The Pacolet River is listed for sale as part of Ozark Mountain Railcar's online auction of April 8th-10th.

Auction thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36309

Full auction listings on the Ozark Mountain Railcar website: http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/catalog.asp?catid=449&n=Auctions

Page for the Pacolet River on the Ozark Mountain Railcar website: http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/detail.asp?id=1373&n=AUCTION-Pacolet-River

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
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".......This was the leading factor for the unique design feature of postwar P-S cars that SOU ordered: the postwar cars were constructed with stainless fluting over stainless side sheets. This has led to a high survival rate of postwar SOU equipment.

The eight postwar observation cars are an example of this unique design specification...."


I do not believe this is accurate. These SOU cars were built just the same as the other cars in the very large Lot 6814 order at Pullman Standard. It is thought that the stainless side sheets were added to the Southern owned equipment, by the Southern, or perhaps by the Pullman Company at the Southern's direction, sometime in the 1960's. This issue has been discussed a few times previously on RYPN. I am not aware that any RYPN readers have come forth with any definitive information to support exactly when and where this work would have been done, but there seems to be enough anecdotal evidence to support that the cars were most certainly not built with stainless side sheets under the stainless fluting. It would be a few more years before we would start to see this as an as-built feature on fluted PS-built cars on a regular basis.

A quick perusal of the Technical Specification for Pullman Standard Lot 6814 would put this issue to rest, but since I do not own any Lot 6814 cars, I have not purchased those specs from the IRM Pullman Library.


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:33 pm 
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Thanks, Topfuel, for the clarification!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:21 am 

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Rainier Rails wrote:
SOU 10RM-6DB sleeper #2008 Pacolet River to Amtrak #2853 (1979) sold 1982 to Al Nippert-Gator Rail sold 1985 to New Georgia sold at auction to Ken Olsten and located at the Tennessee Central Railway Musuem in Nashville

The Pacolet River is listed for sale as part of Ozark Mountain Railcar's online auction of April 8th-10th.
Pacolet River was the first westbound through sleeper after the Southern and the Southern Pacific instituted through service between Washington D.C. and Los Angeles.

I was attending Cal-State Los Angeles at that time and got up early to see the Sunset Limited come into town before attending classes; and then I recall looking up the pronunciation of the name. That is now I remember the name.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:08 am 

Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:40 am
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Topfuel wrote:
".......This was the leading factor for the unique design feature of postwar P-S cars that SOU ordered: the postwar cars were constructed with stainless fluting over stainless side sheets. This has led to a high survival rate of postwar SOU equipment.

The eight postwar observation cars are an example of this unique design specification...."


I do not believe this is accurate. These SOU cars were built just the same as the other cars in the very large Lot 6814 order at Pullman Standard. It is thought that the stainless side sheets were added to the Southern owned equipment, by the Southern, or perhaps by the Pullman Company at the Southern's direction, sometime in the 1960's. This issue has been discussed a few times previously on RYPN. I am not aware that any RYPN readers have come forth with any definitive information to support exactly when and where this work would have been done, but there seems to be enough anecdotal evidence to support that the cars were most certainly not built with stainless side sheets under the stainless fluting. It would be a few more years before we would start to see this as an as-built feature on fluted PS-built cars on a regular basis.

A quick perusal of the Technical Specification for Pullman Standard Lot 6814 would put this issue to rest, but since I do not own any Lot 6814 cars, I have not purchased those specs from the IRM Pullman Library.


I believe the drawings plainly state stainless fluting over stainless sheet with the exception of the FEC car and the NYC car. This is from the construction drawings and not a retrofit.


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:59 am 

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Yes, all of the SR cars as well as the L&N were delivered new from the factory with the stainless side sheets. There was considerable discussion in the SR files, pre order, between SR, Pullman, and the various other lines about who would pay the "up charge" for building them this way and who wouldn't.

The only substantive structural retrofits that we have noted over the years was with the end sills on the vestibule end. Some cars had the Cor-Ten box tube structure replaced with stainless and some didn't. Southern new from their 1941 order that the Pullman design needed help, and they didn't make the same mistake twice. The stainless roof plus stainless side sheets fixed probably 90% of the problems that sent the 1941 cars to an early grave.

ETA


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:42 pm 

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etalcos wrote:
Yes, all of the SR cars as well as the L&N were delivered new from the factory with the stainless side sheets. There was considerable discussion in the SR files, pre order, between SR, Pullman, and the various other lines about who would pay the "up charge" for building them this way and who wouldn't.

The only substantive structural retrofits that we have noted over the years was with the end sills on the vestibule end. Some cars had the Cor-Ten box tube structure replaced with stainless and some didn't. Southern new from their 1941 order that the Pullman design needed help, and they didn't make the same mistake twice. The stainless roof plus stainless side sheets fixed probably 90% of the problems that sent the 1941 cars to an early grave.

ETA


If one reads RYPN long enough, you learn stuff. I didn't know that the SOU Pullman Post-war cars had this modified construction. It certainly makes sense, as to why you still see so many extant examples.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:12 pm 

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"Yes, all of the SR cars as well as the L&N were delivered new from the factory with the stainless side sheets. There was considerable discussion in the SR files, pre order, between SR, Pullman, and the various other lines about who would pay the "up charge" for building them this way and who wouldn't."


That is very interesting information, and the first I have seen that there exists documentation supporting that the stainless side sheets were indeed an as-built feature of the SOU and L&N-owned cars from the Lot 6814 order. I always really enjoy this sort of minutia when it comes to lightweight passenger cars, and I now stand corrected on this issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:22 pm 

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Topfuel wrote:
"Yes, all of the SR cars as well as the L&N were delivered new from the factory with the stainless side sheets. There was considerable discussion in the SR files, pre order, between SR, Pullman, and the various other lines about who would pay the "up charge" for building them this way and who wouldn't."


That is very interesting information, and the first I have seen that there exists documentation supporting that the stainless side sheets were indeed an as-built feature of the SOU and L&N-owned cars from the Lot 6814 order. I always really enjoy this sort of minutia when it comes to lightweight passenger cars, and I now stand corrected on this issue.


Just for the sake of the discussion you are not the first person that I have heard make similar remarks. I have been told that there were a few cars........possibly the sleeper lounge cars that were modified at some point with some stainless structure behind that stainless sheet. By structure I mean side sill and uprights. I called "bull" on that one as we have found nothing to support this either on paper or while getting up close and personal with the cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:17 pm 
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A few disposition additions from Randall:

Changes or additions are underlined.

10RM-6DB sleepers:

CNO&TP #3404 Etowah River was sold to Amtrak #2817 in 1973.

SOU #2001 Altamaha River was sold to Amtrak #2814 in 1973.

SOU #2006 Ocmulgee River was sold to the North Alabama Chapter in 1979.

SOU #2007 Otter River was sold to Amtrak #2815 in 1973.

SOU #2009 Potomac River was sold to Amtrak #2816 in 1973.

SOU #2018 Tombigbee River was sold to an unknown party in Eutaw, AL in 1971. This was the car that at some point was owned by Southwest Railway Services and was later part of a restaurant in Clanton, AL. The #2018 later burned and was subsequently scrapped. Was Southwest RY Services in Eutaw??

SOU #2022 York River was rebuilt to 11DB sleeper #2302 Royal Arch (2nd) in 1975.

L&N #3400 Mobile River was sold to Amtrak #2810 in 1973.

L&N #3401 Pearl River was sold to Amtrak #2811 in 1973. Retired and sold in 1976 to Allen Kempe in Louisville. #3401 is now at the Kentucky RY Museum.

L&N #3410 Green River was sold to Amtrak #2812 in 1973.

L&N #3411 Kentucky River was sold to Amtrak #2813 in 1973.

PRR #8351 Birch River to PC #4356.

PRR #8352 Bush River to PC #4358.

PRR #8353 Delaware River to PC #4360 was sold to Amtrak #2709 in 1974. Retired and sold in 1975 to D.J. Joseph in Cincinnati.

PRR #8354 Middle River to PC #4374 was sold to Amtrak #2797 in 1974.

PRR #8355 Patapsco River to PC #4375.

PRR #8357 Schuylkill River to PC #4377.

PRR #8358 Susquehanna River to PC #4379.

14RM-4DB sleepers:

SOU #2204 Paint Rock Valley was sold to R.B. Llewllyn* in 1971.

*Previously recorded as L.B. Llewlyn.

SOU #2209 Tennessee Valley was sold to the Shaffer Equipment Company in Minden, AL, in 1971. This is the car that was later owned by the Iaeger & Southern and renamed New River Valley.

Excluding #2204, #2206 Roanoke Valley, #2209, and #2210 Wauhatchie Valley*, Randall states that the other seven 14-4 sleepers were retired in 1971 and stripped of parts, with the remaining car bodies being sold for scrap in 1976. Parts removed included six pairs of trucks that were swapped to the #841-#846 in 1971.

*#2210 also served as a parts source, was acquired by the Roanoke Chapter in 1979, and continued to serve as a parts source until being scrapped sometime in the 1980's.

5DB-22 seat buffet lounge observations:

A&WP Charles A. Wickersham (ex-Royal Palace) was retired and sold in 1960 to Joseph B. Lanier of Mobile, AL. Later moved to Panama City, FL.

Both L&N #3300 Royal Canal and L&N #3301 Royal Street were retired and sold in 1970 to the Preston W. Duffy Company of Columbus, OH. The #3300 was previously listed as formerly located in Mobile. Was that actually the Wickersham, not the #3300, or were both cars in Mobile at different times?? The #3300 was burned while in storage in Columbus and was scrapped after being stripped by Orrville RR Heritage/Ohio Railway Supply for parts.

Diners & Lounges:

SOU 44 seat diner #3312 was sold to Ringling Brothers in 1971.

A&WP 44 seat diner #501 was sold to Amtrak #8026 in 1972.

L&N 44 seat diner #2790 was reconfigured to a 32 seat diner 11 seat lounge in 1965. As already noted for the #501, the #2790 was converted to 48 seats by Amtrak.

CofG 6 seat lunch counter 16 seat diner 24 seat lounge #690 was transferred to MofW in 1971.

SOU #3399, CNO&TP #3899, and FEC South Bay are listed as having a 28 seat diner 18 seat lounge configuration.

FEC South Bay was reconfigured to a 55 seat buffet lounge in 1956. Sold in 1965 to SAL #6620 to SCL #5837 and scrapped in 1971.

SOU 48 seat diner #3304 Alexandria was sold to the Blacksburg & Cherokee Falls in 1971.

CofG club lounge observation #692 Fort Benning was sold to Patrick Hall in 1966.

Coaches:

SOU 56 seat coaches #800-#805 were retired in 1966.

SOU 56 seat coaches #808-#812 were retired in 1968.

SOU #811 Sweetwater was sold to the Kentucky RY Museum in 1968.

The four following 52 seat coaches (which were leased to Amtrak in 1979) were sold to Speno in 1980.

SOU #815 (Amtrak #5277)
SOU #825 (Amtrak #5286)
SOU #826 (Amtrak #5287)
SOU #827 (Amtrak #5288)

SOU 52 seat divided coaches #901-#905 were retired in 1966.

SOU #950-#955 are listed as originally having 34 coach seats, and that four seats were later replaced by a conductor's desk.

Head-End Cars:

WofA baggage-RPO (60') #87 was transferred to MofW #7241 in 1969.

L&N baggage-RPO (60') #1120-#1121 (as baggage #1550-#1551) were sold to Habco in 1969.

SOU baggage-12 dormitory-22 seat coach #701 was scrapped in 1971.

SOU baggage-12 dormitory-22 seat coach #702 was sold in 1971.

SOU baggage-12 dormitory-22 seat coach #703 was scrapped in 1966.

SOU baggage-12 dormitory-22 seat coach #705 was sold in 1971.

SOU baggage-RPO (60') #1700 Corinth was sold to Chatham Iron & Metal in 1971.

SOU baggage-RPO (60') #1701 Grand Junction was sold in 1970.

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume One: Pullman Standard" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

3. "Streamliner Cars Volume Three: ACF - Other Builders" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1982)

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