Bad comparison. 630's continued running, certainly, but many forget how reluctant the ET&WNC was in trading the 207 and 208 (that's SRR 630 and 722 to everyone else) to the Southern for those used CofG RS-3s. Those engines were some of the best known in America by the 60s, and it's argued that a railfan was taking photos every time either left the Legion Street enginehouse in Johnson City. Running until the fall if '67, they have been called the last steam locomotives in America running interchange with other steam (North American Rayon porter fireless 0-6-0).
While you can argue that both engines might not be around today if not for the SRR's interest in nabbing them, the ET&WNC had learned a painful lesson by scrapping 3-footer engine #s 9 and 11 after they abandoned the narrow gauge in 1950 (9 going long before 11). I can't imagine they'd have made that mistake again. It's almost a given that at least one would still be around (granted, probably cold and behind a fence) today even had the SRR taken no interest...
Just sayin'.

Lee,

Nothing is certain in this world until it happens. My point is that both were repurchased for use in the steam program, thus almost guaranteeing their continued existence today. The repurchase of them was only because by the mid-1960s, Southern was a leading American railroad that invested more back into the railroad, producing more modern rolling stock, etc. than most other railroads. All of this while returning dividends to the shareholders. That success, of making SOU a railroad of the future allowed it to celebrate its past. We know this as historical fact. Conjecturing that one might have been saved as a park display is just that, conjecture.

No, not really. I've talked with people who worked for the RR at the time and that was their plan to save at least one (if not both) of the engines after they quit running them for good, whenever that took place.

"Mr. Heater, you can address me by my name, which I gladly post and stand behind. No need for "counselor." I just read that as you saying it with some form of contempt, which is bit ironic, since you do not disclose your name (for good reasons, or bad, not for me to judge)."

I will do as you prefer. There was no contempt intended in the use of the word "Counselor", on the contrary, I was providing a common title for your profession as an indication that I considered that you are thinking-not just indulging whim or visceral indignation-about this. I'm not sure why you would infer contempt. I also worked with attorneys who addressed each other that way, once in a while, which I think was meant for the audience's consumption rather than mutual respect. So when they were disputing some fine point of the Internal Revenue Code and I would tell them wake me up when you've settled on the exegesis and agree on the conclusion. They were tax guys though, wondering what happened to the dreams they had in civil procedure.

Of course I'm called "bean counter", which I suspect is far more derogatory and less respectful. I'm just too much of a bull in a china shop to engage in such passive aggression. If I want to express contempt, I much prefer to go right for strategic MIRV'd ICBMs than to mess with silly tactical stuff.


I think we are really talking past each other. I was just preemptively striking against the chain of railfan comments that would stem from Mr. Harrison's (alleged) comments. "They NEED to run steam." "The need to restore a CP 4-8-4!" etc.

I concur. There is only potential advantage, not necessity in the venture.

If in fact CP gave $1,000,000.00 to Sandy relief efforts, I feel that he probably decided the money would get more "bang for the buck" to those he perceives as "mattering."

Exactly. but it's still shareholder money being given away.

I'm just saying that a company like CP, which is viewed as underperforming, probably couldn't get away with running 2816, especially after the "shareholder revolt" that installed Mr. Harrison and his management team.

I have no argument there, except I'm a bit of a cynic and I think there's a bit of an attempt to butcher a sacred cow to show there's a new sheriff in town.


Mr. Rowland is also right. The direction any company takes depends on the focus and interests of management.

Again, I agree. In fact that was my point-it is all about that, and very little about fiduciary obligation.


Some railroads are interested in heritage, others are not. It isn't necessarily good or bad, but it shows that there are different management styles, different priorities, and different consequences as a result of these priorities. Just because a decision doesn't make the railfans happy, does not mean that it is bad for the company.

In the end, this is an academic discussion, as the veracity of the alleged comments are being disputed. I'm a bit surprised that Trains would quote such lightly-sourced information.

Hell ya. I figured this was a bit of moot court, and I felt like playing Devil's advocate. (yeah I just mixed metaphors) Since I have no shares in CP (although I should have acquired some when Harrison took over on my birthday last year or at least bought some out-of-the money calls) simply because investor expectation was bound to ramp up the price. I still think any "heritage" stuff is a way of developing good public relations, something railroads spent the last few decades avoiding, while "CURE" was busy recycling the arguments of the 19th century grange and hoping to bring back the ICC. Now of course, CP is in Canada and running something over much of their line pleases only fauna and flora, so the conditions are different. I think Mr. Moorman is a smart guy who knows the value of having the public having a warm fuzzy when think of how junior saw his first choo choo on their railroad.


In the end, you should be grateful for those companies that do celebrate their heritage. You should also express your thanks, in writing to those in charge at those companies who do dabble in things that exist for your esthetic pleasure. I did this past summer after seeing UP 844 pass at speed through Kirkwood, MO.

Agreed, except for the experience of having been in Kirkwood. I did see 765 in Front of Harris Tower in Harrisburg PA, so I guess the experience was similar, if not identical.

I do however think that the reported one-up on Sandy relief was a bit telling though.

Now back to criticizing the guys that pipe in on the "call the coach" to complain that "we" aren't using the Tight End over the middle enough and throwing enough fades to the wide-outs.

They can always send it back to Steamtown, I hear they are short on steam this year.

To not have her run on CPR would be unfortunate, but wouldn't that be great to have a live Hudson in Scranton again? Would she fit on the table?

I wonder if there was any sort of agreement that when/if CPR no longer had a place for her that Steamtown could have an option on her.

Ok, I'll stop.

Joshua

Yep, the 2816 would fit nicely on the table. In fact, she was the first engine turned when the new bridge went into service!

No kidding! I have a great shot of a much younger me and my Grandad in front of 2816 in Vermont. Thanks Dave- hope you are well! Need to stop by again soon.

Joshua

Trains only "quoted" "such lightly-sourced information" when it appeared in a post in their own website user forums, much like this "Interchange." The forum topic is here for Trains subscribers:
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/215166.aspx

When I received the identical quote simultaneously from several different directions this morning, my thoughts were along the lines of "well, either there's some substance to this stuff, or we're going to end up discussing it anyway because it's spreading about as fast as those rumors that NS is going to claim 611 from Roanoke again, true or not....." As it turns out, that quote was not as widespread as I thought (not yet on TrainOrders, Railroad.net, etc.).

I have run into a fair share of "what the heck happened to CP 2816?" queries lately. I'm afraid that, absent any formal statement or action by CP, it's going to end up as one of the "mystery" locos that keeps getting discussed here ad nauseum along with 1361, 643, 2100, etc.

The 2816 was not running much even before Hunter Harrison pulled a Ben Heineman (or Robert R. Young if you prefer) on the Canadian Pacific. Since she was keeping a low-profile even before he swept on in, isn't it a good chance the Empress will just be in mothballs until Harrison has either fixed up the CP or driven it into the ground like it was another Rock Island and moved on?

Being that Steamtown now enjoys having a progressive Superintendent it might just work to get the CP to "lend" the 2816 to Scranton if all the details could be made to work.

It's clearly evident that as long as the new CEO is at the CPRR helm that she'll sit in the barn, so perhaps if Steamtown would agree to some form of even minimal revenue sharing, Mr. Harrison, who obviously worships the money god, would let 'er go??

Hope somebody will try to broker this.

Ross Rowland

Even when it did run, most (all?) of the trips were out of the reach of those without very deep pockets. Sure, I'm sad to hear it most likely won't be operating, but it didn't have the reach that some of the large engines in the US do.

Ross,

An equally appealing offer might be "Bring it to Scranton and we promise we'll never, ever ask to run it over CP trackage". Ha!

Dave

Guess you could do that and only run it on the DL side that would keep it off the CP but would of course eliminate going anywhere west or south as CP is right outside the west side of the S'town property.

Better than nothing though, and EHH would have it out of his hair!!

Might work??

Ross Rowland

It's clearly evident that as long as the new CEO is at the CPRR helm that she'll sit in the barn, so perhaps if Steamtown would agree to some form of even minimal revenue sharing, Mr. Harrison, who obviously worships the money god, would let 'er go??


Don't we have enough foreign aid programs? We all worship the money god.

I'd rather an executive who is good at generating money than the politicians who get money the old fashioned way-they steal it.

Just because I think there's untapped value in the 2816 program, doesn't mean I don't know HH has a rather laudatory career.