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 Post subject: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:31 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 1182
During the post-HRA visit to the East Broad Top Railroad and Rockhill Trolley Museum on Sunday, a few of us ruminated on the future of the famed narrow gauge railroad. The railroad has not operated for the public since December 2011 and has been offered for sale. There may have been a handful of tire-kickers but no firm offers.

One person raised an interesting point. How is it, he wondered, that a project to build a replica of an essentially failed steam locomotive design has raised a great deal of money with little or no guarantee that the finished locomotive will ever have a place to operate, yet we rail enthusiasts cannot seem to develop a viable plan to save the East Broad Top Railroad, the most complete and unaltered narrow gauge steam railroad complex in the nation? How is it that we, who call ourselves historians and preservationists, seem willing to let the EBT die a slow and painful death without a fight?


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 2329
Location: The Atlantic Coast Line
See also: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41197&hilit=ebt


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1899
Location: Youngstown, OH
My gut tells me that since the EBT has a friends organization, many of us just assume that if any offer to preserve the railroad were to occur, that the FEBT would be the ones leading the way. The FEBT is the logical entity to mount such an effort. They are the recognized experts on the railroad. They already have a good working relationship with the Kovlachicks and they already have a presence at the shops. If another group of people were to come forward to attempt to raise money to purchase the EBT how would the FEBT react? Happy that someone is making the effort or upset that someone else is muscling in on "their" territory?

The T1 Trust has been successful thus far due to having a core group of highly motivated and skilled people at the helm that want to make it a success and who have some resources to draw from. Having the right motivated people is the most important factor in any endeavor, and for some reason those people have not stepped forward yet to lead the effort to acquire the EBT.

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inside Conrail caboose 21747


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:30 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:54 pm
Posts: 84
I would agree with Mr. Rowlands, adding that I think part of the current bid's problem is it's lack of public outreach and involvement. The Mount Union Connecting Railroad has already purchased the yards in Mount Union and the rails as far as Shirleysburg, with hope of being able to eventually purchase the rest with the money raised from their car storage and repair business. It's website, which has mysteriously gone down in the last six months or so, lacked anything relating to asking for donations, volunteers, or the like. The lack of structure around there is what may be the problem. if I were a betting man, I'd bet that if someone set up a solid, welcoming group to get the public hyped up, start fundraising, and look like they have their stuff together, they would likely be met with more success.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:11 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11481
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
I've said this before; I'll say it again:

There are benefactors that were, and are, waiting to put money and "sweat equity"--big and small--towards the preservation of the EBT, that WILL NOT do it as long as the railroad remains a privately-owned asset, especially one on the open market. Some are prohibited from donating to non-501(c)3 projects, by their charters or accountants; others simply don't see the wisdom in donating time or money just to, in effect, improve the resale value of private assets that are officially for sale by a different owner.

I have personally led people over the entire EBT willing and able to broker a financial deal with the Kovalchicks, people even with a(n alleged) similar anti-government mindset. They were put off by the railroad's other liability--its remoteness from "civilization."

The ONLY way I see such a preservation project working long-term is government preservation of the property/right-of-way as a historical entity or tourism asset, with a public-private partnership conducting operations and promoting it. We've seen this model successfully employed with Cass, the Cumbres & Toltec, Western Md. Scenic, and several other operations that happen to operate over state-owned or locally-owned trackage--among those Conway Scenic, Downeast Scenic, the Jim Thorpe operation originally, etc. The full-private model only works with operations in a significant tourism area--Strasburg, Durango & Silverton, Grand Canyon, New Hope & Ivyland, etc.

The Kovalchick family has been extremely well-alleged to have such an anti-government bias that it appears that, absent a significant generational "changing of the guard," the odds of such government preservation for the time being are as close to zero as possible.

And that stalemate gives us our current "suspended animation." And until such time as the situation in the previous paragraph changes, I am forced to mentally avoid the tragedy of that stalemate.

Were that railroad and the FEBT in the same situation as, say, the C&TSR, I would have been going up to Orbisonia once a month or so from Baltimore to make myself useful, and goading a carload to join me. As it stands now, I have been studiously avoiding the heartbreak of driving that stretch of US 522 wherever possible, in spite of the otherwise excellent RTY traction operation.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:23 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2557
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
Mr. Mitchell's summary is spot on. My best guess is that it will take the passing on of the elder generation to get this off dead center.


The remoteness of this entity is a huge negative from the perspective of it ever being able to generate sufficient operating revenues to be truly self sufficient.

When you look at nearly all the successful tourist roads they all share a common trait. They are parasitic to the town or area they're in. Strasburg for the whole horse & buggy Amish thing, NH&I for the artsy/crafty lure of New Hope/Lambertville, etc.

EBT is so far off the beaten track that if it is to be saved it will need to be done based upon a plan that does not demand it become self supporting based upon ridership.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:17 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:27 pm
Posts: 68
So how is the Cumbres & Toltec, far more isolated and farther from civilization than the EBT, able to make a go of it? Yes, both states put up cash, but they wouldn't have done so all these years unless it contributed some meaningful economic return to the area's tourism industry.

Is their model, with the states owning the physical plant and a contract operator running the place, viable at the EBT? (For the sake of argument, let's just assume that PA is willing to put up some cash to own the EBT even though that's probably not the case right now.)

If you can't get past the "But CO and NM pay for the C&TS" then let's compare with the even-more-isolated Nevada Northern. They seem to make a go of it for both the public and the railfan crowd, and they're a four-hour drive from anywhere. And as the NNRY model demonstrates, you don't need to reopen the whole railroad, a few miles will do.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:20 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2499
ADMIV hit all the details. There is another issue, as well: no one has come up with a viable plan to rally around.

The T1 Trust has a clear goal with leadership driving it forward.

Jason’s L&A #503 push had a clear and immediate goal: stop the scrapping (which the effort was 100% successful doing).

It is going to take an organizer to create a plan and rally folks behind the plan. Until then, better organized projects will continue to draw the money.

Many people love the EBT, but the person with the answer has yet to emerge. As time goes on, the task becomes harder and the answer evolves.

Rob


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:44 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2560
Location: Strasburg, PA
co614 wrote:
Mr. Mitchell's summary is spot on. My best guess is that it will take the passing on of the elder generation to get this off dead center.

Off dead center, but possibly not in the way that we want.

Joe Kavolchick is over 80 years old, and rumor has it that he is the only one keeping the RR from being liquidated right now, supposedly his heirs have zero minus interest in keeping EBT, and they are in the scrap business.

I am very pessimistic about EBT's future. I hope that RRMPA will save one of the mikados, but I am told that chances of that happening are doubtful as well.

Regarding being isolated, EBT is only about ten or fifteen miles off of a cross country freeway. On the other hand, Orbisonia makes Chama look like Paris when it comes to tourist infrastructure.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:51 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6399
Location: southeastern USA
[quote="co614" When you look at nearly all the successful tourist roads they all share a common trait. They are parasitic to the town or area they're in.[/quote]

I'd prefer the take that they contribute to the totality of entertainment options in tourist based economies, and provide another cultural option in major urban areas. If we see ourselves as parasites and act like them, it's pretty shortsighted - we'll kill off the parts of the host we need to survive. If we contribute, we only make all of us stronger.

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“God, the beautiful racket of it all: the sighing and hissing, the rattle and clack of the cars over the rails. These were the sounds that made America the greatest country on earth." Jonathan Evison


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2557
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
Dave, I'm afraid you miss the main point. Lancaster County became a "must visit" tourist area for the high population nearby greater Phila. aarea primarily to see the whole Amish lifestyle in real time and the Strasburg RR took advantage of that to entice folks to take a steam powered choo-choo ride while they were there. Same is true of the NH&I where I run Santa trains. New Hope was a solid " must see" tourist town long before the railroad started offering train rides. The NH&I gets most of its riders ( excluding the specialty trains North Pole Express, Easter Bunny Express etc.) from folks who came to New Hope not even knowing that there was a railroad ride available, and heard the whistle ( horn) and decided to take a ride.

The chances of the EBT to attract casual visitors that just happened to be in the neighborhood is nil.

That's the main point.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:34 am
Posts: 534
Location: Granby, CT but formerly Port Jefferson, NY (LIRR MP 57.5)
Kelly Anderson wrote:
Regarding being isolated, EBT is only about ten or fifteen miles off of a cross country freeway. On the other hand, Orbisonia makes Chama look like Paris when it comes to tourist infrastructure.


Orbisonia may not be remote in the literal geographical sense, but I think it's somehow culturally remote in that rural central Pennsylvania is not a fashionable destination that people think they want to visit -- cf. the slang term "Pennsyltucky" or the famous James Carville quote comparing the region to Alabama. It's an unfortunate perception that the EBT will struggle to overcome.

-Philip Marshall


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:29 pm
Posts: 50
EBT is around 30 miles from Raystown Lake. One of the biggest Tourist lakes in PA. Tour the resorts Campgrounds and the marinas and you will see this is a tourist destination area. In a hour ride radius of Raystown Lake is Altoona, Penn's Cave and Everett Railroad
i discovered Everett Railroad because of a flyer at the marina. I found EBT from a sign off Route 76


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:07 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 8:35 pm
Posts: 295
If the FEBT were offered the Orbisonia property and rolling stock at a reasonable price "I" and I'm certain many others would be willing to donate money towards saving one of the greatest places on EARTH. I believe that many people/potential buyers have all been scared away by the unrealistic value asked for the property. It's location certainly does,hurt it, but, then again that's what kept it so original.
What say you ?

Kevin K.


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 Post subject: Re: The final fate of the EBT?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6399
Location: southeastern USA
Ross, I got your point about the value of being in a "destination." I just didn't think it was articulated from the best perspective. So, you want to either be in a destination or be the destination...... and contribute to the strength and prosperity of the destination in either case.

So, apart from models of economic development projects that just happen to be railroads like CATS, Cass, Railtown and Steamtown, can we find a means of making EBT a destination that will start to gather other attractions into its orbit enough to succeed? Or, should we work towards trying to build a deal with the public sector that will make it into an economic development operation that just happens to be a historic railroad?

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“God, the beautiful racket of it all: the sighing and hissing, the rattle and clack of the cars over the rails. These were the sounds that made America the greatest country on earth." Jonathan Evison


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