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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:08 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:32 pm
Posts: 28
BrassPhoenix wrote:
Tim Moriarty wrote:
[I do believe Ft Eustis transportation museum is trying to slowly revive an old Army locomotive and they still have a small fleet of Army passenger cars they still use for training purposes.]

I know of no plan to revive any locomotive from the museum and it has been decades since the post had a significant number of passenger cars. For a very long time there has only been one ex-DOT stainless steel car for the rare passenger ride, and usually it can be found inside the enginehouse. I trained there as an active duty railroader (1975) and later as a rail reservist and, when I retired a decade ago, all training was still focused on freight operations. If there was a plan to reactivate a museum locomotive, or if passenger cars had been moved onto the post for training purposes, I would have heard about it through my contacts with the museum.


When I went to AIT there was a small string of 3 to 4 coaches in the main yard, they were pretty beat up and gutted from the looks of it. there was also a fairly nice looking coach inside a fenced siding,looked to be more privately owned since it looked so nice. as far the engine goes, it was just talk I heard so If I am wrong then I apologize.


Like these? https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fort+Eus ... 19&iwloc=A


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:25 pm
Posts: 273
While those cars look like passenger coaches from the outside, they're actually old hospital cars that the post has been attempting to get rid of for years. Since they can't be moved off-post in interchange, getting someone to take them off the post's hands has proven elusive. At one time two of the better-looking cars were in the post museum, but since they were used by hospital train units of the Medical Corps, not the Transportation Corps, eventually they were moved out to make room for new acquisitions of a TC nature. At one point a locally-based group took possession of them but was never able to move them, so ownership reverted to the Army. A dozen years or so ago the head of the rail school house told me the post commander wanted to get them off the post sooner rather than later, and he was quite adamant about it. That senior officer is long gone, but during my last visit to the post in 2011, the cars were still there, and as far as I know they still are today.

To my knowledge, the hospital cars were never used in training and simply take up space in Hanks Yard. For training purposes, the school house uses those secondhand yellow box cars with red doors (TC colors) that reside in Hanks Yard when not in service.

Another hospital car has sat within the fenced area behind the enginehouse for many years. I don't know its particulars, but if I recall correctly, it has an asbestos problem, and the easiest solution appears to have been to park it indefinitely.

Former US Army 8011, an Alco RSD-1, was acquired from the museum in Strasburg, PA, a couple of years ago and shipped to the Transportation Museum at Fort Eustis, where it was given a cosmetic restoration; however, there are no plans to restore it to operation. Here's a picture of it after its arrival.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=2377735

Its trucks arrived on a separate flat car.


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Engine No.611 is a very interesting case study. The poppet gear is most intriguing.
Canadian National Railways must have had a few died-in-the-wool steam men in their locomotive department, even as diesels were taking over. They had some modern steam power running in full service until 1960. In 1949, they fitted one of their excellent Northern Type engines with an "oscillating-cam poppet valve gear". This was an experimental application. Many of these engines used Baker valve gear ordinarily.
The engine selected was Northern Type, No.6184 built in 1940. I have seen a couple of pictures showing a side view of the linkages but have never seen diagrams or in-depth views of the inner workings of poppet gear until viewing this thread. Thank you to all who have placed information here.
The poppet gear on No.6184 was supplied by Dominion Engineering Works, Limited of Montréal, said to be based on a Czech patent. I am assuming the work was done at the railway's Point St. Charles shops in Montréal.
In the CNR steam "bible", "Canadian National Steam Power" by Clegg & Corley, they state:

" The poppet gear on engine 6184 ... employed individual admission and exhaust valves so that, by proper selection of the cams which actuated the valves, any desired valve timing could be obtained. the characteristics of this poppet valve gear - late release, high expansion ratio, absence of 'wire drawing' losses and large port openings - were said to have two important effects on the economy of the steam locomotive, namely:
1) A saving in coal for a given output of the locomotive due to improved cylinder efficiency, and
2) An increase in cylinder horsepower output for a given maximum boiler capacity, especially at higher speeds.
Although the gear generally performed as anticipated, CN's commitment to dieselization gave only a limited life expectancy to the steam locomotive, and the poppet valve assemblies were replaced with conventional Baker gear ..."

One account suggests the gear was applied in November, 1949 and finally removed in February, 1952 suggesting perhaps it lasted through a some of a shopping cycle? There are mentions of some testing of the engine in the winter of 1950 suggesting they may have had a dynamometer car hooked behind her on a few runs to gain comparative stats? Later pictures of No.6184 show her back with her Baker gear. The engine was scrapped in 1961.
Does anyone have further information on No.6184? It would be great to see some "dyno" read-outs for this and other poppet valve type engines as compared to conventional valve gears.
Thank you.


Last edited by Great Western on Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 947
Location: Warszawa, Polska
Great Western, you're in luck. I just happen to have a copy of CNR's form 571 for 6184.

Here's what it has to say:

-Poppet Valve applied replacing Baker Valve Gear at Montreal November 1949
-Poppet Valve removed and Baker Gear Applied at Montreal February 1952.

The poppet valve gear cost $26,606 in 1949.

She was retired in January 1, 1960 (the official end of steam on the CNR) and scrapped at London on August 14, 1961.

Joe

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CNR 6167 in Guelph, ON or "How NOT To Restore A Steam Locomotive"


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:12 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Joe,
Thank you for the information.
Now, it is interesting to think back and imagine the discussions in the locomotive department about spending that much money on an experiment! So, in '49, some of the guys there must have hoped for a longer future for steam, or at least, some way of keeping some relatively modern steam power running for many years.
I wonder if their dyno test results would be in the National Archives as a lot of Grand Trunk - Canadian National material ended up there?


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:57 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1195
Location: South Carolina
Do either of you know what poppet valve arrangement was applied to 6184? I'm guessing Franklin Type A.

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The Ultimate Steam Page
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:45 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 947
Location: Warszawa, Polska
Great Western,

If dyno results for 6184 do exist then its possible they may be in the National Archives or Exporail/Delson, or perhaps The Science Museum in Ottawa, although I think the first two would be more likely.

They may also include the specifics on the type of Poppet Gear.

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CNR 6167 in Guelph, ON or "How NOT To Restore A Steam Locomotive"


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Ontario, Canada.
whodom wrote:
Do either of you know what poppet valve arrangement was applied to 6184? I'm guessing Franklin Type A.


The only thing I have seen, in a couple of accounts, was that it was built after a Czech patent? I have a couple of pictures somewhere and will try to post them.
And, Joe, I'll check out those possibles for dyno test archives.
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Ontario, Canada.
There are some pictures of No.6184 with poppet valve further along in this link:
http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadi ... 7_2002.pdf
A friend also sent me a bit of data from a "Locomotive Cyclopedia", 1950-57 issue - Sec. 18 'Poppet Valves' with another view of the Northern Type. It states:
"Equipped with Poppet Valve Gear, applied to existing piston valve cylinder castings at Montréal Shops, 1949. One 14-in. piston valve in each steam chest replaced by two 7-in. diam. admission and four 7 in. diam. exhaust valves."


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:32 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 416
Attachment:
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Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1195
Location: South Carolina
Great Western wrote:
There are some pictures of No.6184 with poppet valve further along in this link:
http://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadi ... 7_2002.pdf
A friend also sent me a bit of data from a "Locomotive Cyclopedia", 1950-57 issue - Sec. 18 'Poppet Valves' with another view of the Northern Type. It states:
"Equipped with Poppet Valve Gear, applied to existing piston valve cylinder castings at Montréal Shops, 1949. One 14-in. piston valve in each steam chest replaced by two 7-in. diam. admission and four 7 in. diam. exhaust valves."


Thanks for the link- you DO learn something new every day!

"...experimental rotary valve gear developed from Czech patents by Dominion Engineering."

It's hard to tell a lot from the photos. The drive is very much like Franklin Type B. It looks as if they may have somehow retained the original piston valve cylinders. I'd love to see a drawing of this setup.

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Hugh Odom
The Ultimate Steam Page
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1133
Location: Pacific, MO
I just noticed that their air/signal hoses are on the left of the coupler. I'm used to seeing them on the right. Was this Canadian practice?


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9262
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
The sad part is, ETAlcos's sarcastic answer regarding USATC 611 is most likely still completely valid. $3.5 million and nine months, and you probably COULD get that thing running--say, if Hollywood had a need for it in the sequel to "The Lone Ranger." (Now, you see, THAT'S sarcasm--as if that movie's going to have a sequel....)


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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Thanks to M. Austin and whodom for the contributions.
I'll try to attach some pictures. A couple of (hopefully) better views of the gear on No.6184 and then some Franklin material a friend sent me.


Attachments:
6184b.jpg
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6184a.jpg
6184a.jpg [ 130.78 KiB | Viewed 4432 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: USATC 2-8-0 No. 611
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Ontario, Canada.
And the Franklin pages - I hope they have not already been posted.


Attachments:
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6184d.jpg
6184d.jpg [ 195.96 KiB | Viewed 4430 times ]
6184c.jpg
6184c.jpg [ 149.11 KiB | Viewed 4430 times ]
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