What I haven't seen mentioned yet is the obvious fact that all coal is not equal, period. There are varying grades, and it's almost impossible to find the good stuff- Pocahontas bituminous. Low suffer and ash content, BTU in the 12-14,000 range, doesn't have a tendency to clinker. This coal is so valuable in the metallurgical and export business it almost can't be had in the quantities of a handful of tons needed for our use, at least not for a practical price. Every operation I've been a part of that uses coal plays roulette when the next truck load comes in. Is this new load going to be hot enough? Too smoky? Sized correctly or packed through with fines? Is it going to clinker badly? With dealers that deliver, you never know what you'll get, and sometimes they don't even know what they'll get. And this is after paying a considerable price per ton to get it in the first place. There are groups, many of them high profile, well known coal users, that are considering changing to oil for these reasons right here: Inconsistent quality, availability, and price.

Fossil fuels will always be a part of mankind's industries. They're just too useful and support specialized processes that don't have a practical replacement.. they'll never go away completely. As demand contiues to fall over the next decade or two, the fossil fuel mines and wells will continue to shutter, and what little is still extracted will be tailored to suit the regular-load customers, and not the comparatively small, few and far between shipments that steam operations order. The powder basin coal reserves will probably be some of the last commercially available in the US, and that stuff is not suitable for a locomotive.

By the end of this half of the century I predict a coal burning locomotive will be a unique enough experience it will draw people for that reason alone. Not extinct, but so uncommon in the face of other fuel options, it might as well be. Most of these holdouts will be small engines that don't burn a lot or run often, or work hard enough to really need every last BTU out of the coal.

-Sam

Boilermaker is spot on. When we ran the 614 we bought coal from a specific mine in W.Va. that supplied the best Pocahontas variety with 13,000-14,000 btus with low ash content.

We gladly paid a $ 10/ton premium to have it triple screened ( eliminates nearly all fines and ensures all of it is 3x5 inches in size) and then oil washed just before loading to eliminate dust.

It was well worth it to get flawless performance and minimum clinkering.

I just checked and it's still available. The price at the mine is now $ 150/ton so with trucking that would be about $ 225/ton delivered.

Happy Thanksgiving. Ross Rowland

I just looked up the calorific value of Powder River Basin coal; "relatively low gross calorific value, with a range of 4,580 to 10,560 Btu and a mean of 8,820. Btu", this from a US Geological Survey web page.

Brings to mind a comment I recall reading; when the writer was a college engineering intern, he had the job of running calorific content tests on this coal. He asked his boss if they had to mix it with fuel oil to get it to burn.

I recently was allowed by a friendly, remote overseer to climb up on a coal hopper inbound to a large Western cement plant to look at the coal itself, of Western origin.

Being raised on Pennsylvania coal from the Clearfield and Broad Top areas as well as what got used at Strasburg, EBT, Pioneer Tunnel, etc., my first words were: "What the [BLEEP] is THIS [BLEEP]?!?!?!?!?"

" Kicking against the rise of electric vehicles is about as foolhardy as trying to be a Baldwin steam locomotive sales representative in the 1950's..."

Beyond the fact that the recently in the news 1309 was the last domestic delivery of steam by Baldwin in 1948, and their last delivery anywhere was an order for India in 1954 and I don't actually think there were steam reps in the 1950's- ​the diesel locomotive was an indisputably superior machine. At present, electric cars have several deficiencies relative to IC vehicles.

Right now, electric cars have more limited range than IC engines, and you can't recharge them in ten minutes, virtually anywhere. In order to save weight, body components are made of exotic polymers with inordinately long half lives and limited recyclability, batteries require extraction and refinement (or recycling) of nickel, lithium and other metals with relatively high toxicity; their capacity diminishes with every charge, until they are useless.

In addition, widespread use will create stepwise variable costs on the electric generation and distribution system, with newer high capacity lines and greater generating capacity.

I'm not against electric cars, somebody may solve these problems, but right now EV's are expensive and with reduced utility compared to IC vehicles. My Subaru crossed 79,000 miles tonight. I figure to get 200K out of it, but since it goes through brakes and tires every 60K, new shoes at 180 might push for a replacement. And since the advent of the 30 foot commute and the discontinuance of my trips to Scranton, I might keep it until it's eligible for an antique plate. (It's a 2015). It saved my keister when a distracted driver plowed me from behind three or for years ago.

I used to see a car around Harrisburg about 12-15 years ago that always smelled like French fries and had a vanity plate that said "GREASE". I'm almost certain it was burning waste cooking oil and not an homage to the film. Hook me up with that.

Quite frankly, I really hope somebody solves the hydrogen issue. I'd much rather that my tail pipe emits vapor than pretending there's no emissions with electric.

Post deleted due to overly political nature.

-Moderator

ALWAYS remember the # 1 rule in trading....." the trend is your friend"

It's abundantly obvious the coals time has come and is leaving. By mid century in the USA it will be down to a tiny fraction of its peak use and that will be pretty much limited to steel making.

As to the tourist rail industry I'd be surprised if by 2030 there are no more than only a very few one offs are left burning coal.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

RockAuto is already starting to offer aftermarket replacement battery packs for the older EVs--or was, I can't find them now.
I'm repeatedly amazed and bemused at the people who went out to buy EVs only to receive sticker shock at the replacement cost of proprietary batteries, or the annual bills from the Department of Motor Vehicles to replace the fuel taxes they no longer pay towards roads upkeep.



If that was an older Mercedes diesel, I believe it was owned by an attorney who had his own refinery in his garage, and he had the oil delivered by the same trucks that picked it up from restaurants--until it burned down. (And I understood he made the money to buy that set-up from a lucrative business defending DUI defendants on their first citations.)

https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2008/ ... axton.html

I don’t have much to say regarding coal, living in the land of historically oil-fueled steam, but our household did get an electric car a couple of weeks ago. It’s a blast.

We don’t yet have rooftop solar or a 220 outlet set up outside, so once or twice a week, we travel down the street about 3 miles to charge it up in 30 mins, which costs about $16 during peak hours and $8 off.

I’ve never driven a sports car but it handles like what I imagine one does. After driving it for a bit, my IC pickup suddenly feels like an antique.

Here in our community, I’d guess that we’re approaching 10% of the cars we see are electric.

Concerns about grid capacity, transmission lines, etc are real. Check out Jon Oliver’s segment from a few days back: https://youtu.be/qBpiXcyB7wU

Like much of our infrastructure, we’ve been coasting along on the highways, grids and bridges largely built by the Greatest Generation and their parents.

Regarding recent coal versus oil discussions, personally I think both fuels have their place in our industry, and both are worth preserving.

So far as the simplistic angle of “oil is better than coal”, I’m not buying it. I will concede the ease of handling and lack of ash with oil, but on the other hand oil puts out just as much (or more) smoke and pollutants as coal. Regarding fire hazard, at SRC I’d bet we’ve set more line side fires working our SW-8 under heavy load than our steam engines ever have.

Further, I believe the preservation of coal burning technology and skills are just as important as any other aspect of what we preserve in our industry. We could all convert to roller bearings. We could all convert to ABDX brakes. We could all fulfill our operating requirements with Amfleet cars and GP-38’s. But we don’t. We fight the good fight to preserve old skills and operate old equipment because that is a large part of why we’re in business.

There may be a time when our hand is forced by political or economic pressure (however misguided or the unfair it may be) to convert entirely to coal. There may be a time when we are all forced to run Amfleet equipment and GP-38’s, or are forced to become a rail trail. But that time is not now, and I think it is as incumbent upon us as preservationists to carry the torch forward to as many future generations as we can.

-Erich Armpriester

Seems most of the coal burning steam is in the eastern part of the US, with the exception of the 261 I guess.
Wonder if the operators could pool resources and form a "consortium" in order to buy coal.
Maybe it would be cheaper to buy from China or Europe if this madness continues.
When you think of eliminating all fossil fuels, consider everything else oil is involved with. Plastic, lubrication for the wind farm turbines and millions of other uses.
Until saner minds inhabit Washington DC (what are the odds of that) improvising is going to become a new art form.
As long as some individuals who have become ultra billionaires due to "Climate Crisis" and other green madness, you will always have an uphill fight, but fight you must.

@614


"ALWAYS remember the # 1 rule in trading....." the trend is your friend"

It's abundantly obvious the coals time has come and is leaving. By mid century in the USA it will be down to a tiny fraction of its peak use and that will be pretty much limited to steel making."

That certainly didn't explain today though, did it. Lucky me, I'm paranoid and other than one put option in Overstock.com all my cash covered puts expired worthless and I'll sleep well.

You are forgetting something though-Say's Law. If coal is suddenly freed from its traditional use-then you have a supply that might find a new and yet unimagined use. Remember Silicon's abundance (silicon in the form of silicates constitutes more than 25% of the Earth's crust). encouraged its use for mostly low value items-until somebody figured out that it had use in electronics.

@ADM IV

"If that was an older Mercedes diesel, I believe it was owned by an attorney who had his own refinery in his garage, and he had the oil delivered by the same trucks that picked it up from restaurants--until it burned down. (And I understood he made the money to buy that set-up from a lucrative business defending DUI defendants on their first citations.)"

I don't remember the model of the car, but I think it was something other than "native" diesel. As for "Attorney Gary", he is indeed a DUI specialist who has had a billboard on I-83N right around Union Deposit Road that for years pictured him as a young man clad I think in a track suit. He at least doesn't have the infamy of former local attorney Karl Rominger who became a bit of a local radio celebrity, first by being a commenter and then a sub for long-time afternoon guy on WHP before having his own show. Once during his subbing days, he offered his opinion on accrual accounting as as a convenient contrivance of accountants to generate billable hours and obscure reality. I politely called him up using the nom de guerre "Phil", explained his error and then asked him to confine himself to the practice of law. He sort of did, becoming a part of Sandusky defense, before comingling funds to cover-up his gambling "accruals".

@Erich A

This might merit it's own thread but:

I don't think I can endorse your dedication to preserving authentic period correct components enough. Although heritage operations are inevitably a constrained approximation of the past, every replacement technology distorts the view of the past. I can imagine that it's difficult to keep UC's and P's, with a scarcity of parts and the shorter maintenance cycles. Maybe the brake valves are inconspicuous to the point of invisibility to a visitor/rider, but part of preservation is maintaining the artifact in as close as possible to service life condition.

In some cases, I'm not sure the "modern replacement" offers advantages. Sure, a 26 brake has pressure maintaining-a feature the late Bernie O'Brien used to say "made a lot of engineers, good engineers", but without long trains and stiff grades, the minimum reduction takes away that fine element of control. Of course for a main-line engine designed to run at speed, I understand that the people that will run those trains will have no familiarity with a 6 or 8 and the 26 becomes a necessary and required concession.

Of course where we often lose authenticity is our apparel and equipment. Nothing like that Pelican/Yeti cooler and we can be damn sure hand held radios have saved lives. Having the conductor on radio to pass on a reminder about an impending slow order obviously enhances safety, but that's not how it was done 80 years ago. Likewise the required detail of a modern Form D avoids confusion that open-ended nature of a Form 19 could induce.

Sometimes however I wonder. Train crews are often be-decked in Hi-Vis vests (which no doubt are valuable in modern freight yards, but on a single train at a time, restricted speed line-I still want to know where everybody as the primary mitigation against injury risk-please I'm not suggesting you violate uniform or safety orders-I'm just thinking out loud). Sometimes, crews are swinging Star 2012's, not even Congers or Justrites, let alone Kerosene.

To take coal out of the equation for an engine designed to burn it-in terms of interpretation -is a bridge too far for me. To have suffered innumerous indignities and failures while learning to keep a flat, hot fire is learning about the past.

In some ways it's like having a World War II reenactor show up without a leather wrapped handle Ka Bar in a leather sheath, instead sporting a micarta handled SOG
Pillar in a Kydex Sheath.

Then you might consider learning about the way GB heritage railways have organized and formed a lobby within both big parties, so making sure they do have a future.

If you care about the one characteristic supply for steam locomotives, you might form an association comprising all coal-burning railroads, persons and entities better today than tomorrow.

Mike

"Then you might consider learning about the way GB heritage railways have organized and formed a lobby within both big parties, so making sure they do have a future.'

My days of chasing feral geese and herding cats are over. I'll leave that to someone younger and more idealistic.

What is the position of our lobbying organization on the coal situation? I know that we don't carry much weight at all in the grand scheme of things, but is there at least a dialogue between the HRA and the American Coal Council so that when they are lobbying for coal's future, they might be looking out for our interests too?

Heck, for all we know the coal industry could be wishing that we went away as black smoke to them may represent "dirty coal" and their big push is on "clean coal".